Misrepresentation and Trust

[Jay Boutwell]

 

It seems that I am always writing about something of which I should not have to.  The last time it was about the spam appearing here and now it is about something that is just as important.  Important to me as a member of this community but also to each one of you.  It is about integrity or honesty in the things that we do.  It certainly is important in woodworking just as it is in the largest business world that we now live in.  Without it there is nothing to guide us as we build and sell or display our labor and ideas.  Although many will wonder why is he writing about this when it does not have anything to do with woodworking?  Well It may not to some however it does effect you and your customer and or potential customer as it is about honesty in woodworking.  I had much rather spend my time writing about wood working but unfortunately this will deal with something that we all should think about and consider it important.  Not only do we need to worry about copyright infringement but also how we present out products to others.

 

Here is a situation,if a customer was wanting to buy a product.  Would you  be honest in what and how it is made and not tell them that it is all wood if it was not.  Plywood is now pretty much considered to be wood however is a card board surface covered by a wood grain actually wood?  What I am saying here is that if you told me that the product was "ALL WOOD OR SOLID WOOD" should I take the meaning  as to mean that it is "ALL WOOD" and contrary to the famous phrase now common in cabinet and furniture which is "All Wood Products".  Too many times in the salesmanship, people get taken by failing to heed the word that ends the phrase which is "PRODUCTS" .  My question to you.  If the salesman knows that the product is not, is he misrepresenting the product and how does it effect his integrity?

 

So now is the store who is selling the product also guilty of the same if they advertise  the product as "ALL WOOD PRODUCTS"?  No they are not however if they advertise the product as " ALL WOOD " and it is in fact not, then the advertisement displaying is misleading or misrepresenting to anyone who sees it, and they are guilty.

 

This all has something about POLICING our selves and those  who believe in a trust .  Recently within the last week or so there has been a situation on this community of which has breached this trust.  A project has been posted on the pages of this community displaying a project that is reported as and represented to have been built by this member.  It has been discovered that there were at least a half dozen different persons who had a hand in its construction and one of these was also another member.  The project was displayed here with  absence of giving credit to the other ones who helped build it.  It being posted as a project of which leads the viewer to believe it was built by that person.  

Isn't it true that in order to truthfully post something leading the viewer to have the belief that it was built by the one posting, it has to have been the sole person of whom built the project unless credit was given to the other ones who assisted?  I would think so but this is not the case, it was posted as being built by this person,  It even has some wording that indicates that it was build by this member and nothing to indicate that there was others involved in its construction. If this is not misrepresentation then how would you rate it?

 

I notified the Kreg Rep early last Friday and to this date and time have seen nothing in the way of a response so it leads me to believe that it is alright to mislead us members.

In my opinion it is not as when someone posts a project it has always been taken as being built by the person who posted it.  I have seen many projects over the years and those who build from a plan have been very loyal about naming the source of the plan and that is commendable in my mind. 

However in this case there was no such credit or mention but there was a link guiding you to a  web site of which reading carefully find out who the plan was from. 

The point here is that it is misleading and its entirety should be removed from the Kreg Community's pages.  What this has done is caused me to loose any creditability to any other projects previous and future from this member.   When you say "WE" that means more than one and when you say "I" that mean one person as means the person talking or taking the credit.    The word "I" was used when it was posted and "WE" when it was built.

 

What this has also done is to open the door for anyone who wants to impress someone would be to go to a store and photograph an object and then post it here as something you have built.

So now you be the Judge as I have uttered my opinion of this situation. 

[ron gagnon]

i agree with jay  posted so well  honesty is a great value and i know some  members  here are at least the ones i know and right now i am building my own kitchen cabinets  and trusting kreg products and using them .

am not a pro but i am doing the best i can with the knowlege  i got here from other members who  have shared

the wood working projects they build . honesty and trust has inspired me to continue and build my own kitchen cabinets. agree or not it is my  personal opinion.

 

[james wilhelm]

Also agree with JAY ,  be honest  if (you) built it take credit , if you had help give credit to the (ones) that helped you build the project !!! This is a great site with a lot of very good members  with a lot of talent , if you had help say so , if you used a plan  give credit  and if you built it , be proud of your project !! I also am not a pro , but am proud of every thing I design and give credit when due if I had help , this is also my opinion !!!!

[David Dean]

Nice call Jay  Thank you .

[michael evans]

Had a boss who took my ideas for his own ,he got a massive pay rise . Me, I left the Company in disgust . I get more cynical as I get older, most Companies only interested in three things . Profit , profit , image . As Jim rightly said their are a lot of good honest people on this site , lets keep it that way .

[Rita B.]

Thought provoking post Jay!   I agree with giving credit where credit is due and owning your mistakes.  It is how we learn.   I think in some cases it is not a act of deception, just what is believed to be true.   Your comments in regards to solid wood or solid wood products actually cleared up a misconception for me.   I had always thought that if you use a wood plywood vs a product like MDF for example in a cabinet, it would be a wood cabinet.   Sometimes simple terminology can be confusing.

[KregRep]

Thanks for the thought-provoking posts. I do believe that people shouldn't misrepresent themselves, their products, or their creations. I believe, overall, that the members of this community do a great job of that.

When someone posts a photo or a project, we expect that they will represent it as their own, or give credit as due when the project was actually produced by someone else. That being said, we use an honor system on the site. We expect members to police themselves and to use the honor system.

We work very hard to make sure that we keep this community free of spam and users with dishonest intent. We invest a lot of time and money to keep this site running and to keep it free and accessible to users. We're happy to do this, because it provides a place for our wonderful customers to share what they create, ask questions, offer advice, etc. Honestly, it also helps us build our brand and our customer awareness, of course. So, we hope that it creates a win-win situation.

When it comes to posting projects or photos, we don't require people to fill out a form or anything else. Some people give very complete descriptions, some give very little. Some explain all the steps in the process, some don't. Some members show the plans if they developed them or list the source of the plans, while others do neither. In any of the cases, the projects and photos can be inspiring and informative. Sometimes, all we need is an idea to spur our own creativity and desire to build. Sometimes we want more. Through this community, members are able to get both, and often a whole lot more.

Regarding the post you are speaking of, I have been out of town and away from technology, so I hadn't been able to respond personally to your message. I apologize for that. I did have someone working in my absence to keep the community policed and running. We know the person who posted the project you speak of, and she had no intention of deceiving anyone by saying that she built it. It was done as part of a conference for DIY bloggers. She and another community member, also a DIY blogger, demonstrated how to build that table, as well as another project in two different sessions. We were there, and we saw it happen. The members of this community built the projects. Throughout their demonstrations, they asked attendees to come up and drill a hole, drive a screw, etc., so they could get a hands-on feel for using tools and building. The photographs posted reflected that. The description didn't make it clear. But, the table was built in less than an hour, and primarily by the community members who led the discussion. She posted it here as a community member, and she posted it on her own blog. She also linked to the table plan and gave credit to the creator of the plan. That all doesn't break any rules of our community.

So, could the member have described the project better? Yes. Would this have eliminated the confusion over the honesty of the post content. It would have. But, if we insisted that every member post every detail, then it's likely that people wouldn't post as many things, since they might not have every detail. I've seen many people post projects and photos of things they built from plans they got online, in a magazine, etc., and not credit the source. That's fine as long as they are representing it as something they built, and not a design that they created.

After all, many skilled builders are not designers. We all use plans some or even all of the time, and then we apply our own skills to create the item as we see it, whether it's an exact build of the plan or we modify it.

From our side, could we be better at always commenting, featuring, congratulating, asking questions, etc. as members post? Yes. We do look EVERY day, and we do comment at times. Sometimes we may feature a project, and other times we may not feature one we should. We're fallible, but we try. We also have traditionally taken the stand that we provide the platform, and the members make up the community. That's why we don't always jump in. We'll work on making sure that we are jumping in when it's appropriate, and, if we are failing at this aspect, we'll try to do a better job.

So, what does this all come to? Simply the fact that we want all of our members to share what they create. We want them to represent those creations honestly. We hope that members will ask questions and offer advice, and all of the other things that are possible in this community. We also hope that all members will maintain integrity and honesty in their interactions in the community.

We will also continue to do our best to keep the community free of spammers and scammers. Because this is a large community, it makes us a target for those people, unfortunately. That's why, after the troubles of a couple of years back with spammers, we instituted our "screening" policy for new members. The system works well overall, and we spend time seven days a week--yes, including our "days off"--monitoring and approving new members. We reject those that are obviously false without ever letting them in. Of course, despite our best efforts, occasionally someone will fool us by answering everything in seemingly believable ways, and we'll let them in. When we find their intentions less than honorable--which often happens because other members let us know let us know--we delete them immediately. For every spammer that gets through, which is very few for a community of this size, we reject more who attempt to get in.

Does any of this make the community unsafe or risky? No. If you ever get a message from someone that raises suspicions, let us know, and we'll investigate it immediately. Like all messages, whether via email traditional mail, or other means in your electronic life at large, if it's suspicious, don't open it. 

Regarding the representation of "all wood," "solid wood," etc. I agree this can be confusing. Definitions are not great. Plywood is all wood (plus glue), but it is not solid wood. So, the lines blur. The old saying applies: Caveat Emptor--buyer beware.

We sincerely hope that every member of the Kreg Owners' Community finds it to be a valuable, informative, rewarding experience. Like any community, whether in the "real" world or the digital world, there will occasionally be issues, confusion, disagreements, etc. Overall, though, we believe we've created something pretty great. Actually, we've offered the platform, and the members have made it great. We'll keep working hard to do everything we can to ensure it stays that way. And we will always accept your honest critiques of how we're doing. I'll try to reply right away, but I can't always do that. The reality is that I monitor this community, but it is not my sole job responsibility. And, though I do monitor it on my days off, in the evenings, and even while on vacation when possible, I simply cannot be on the community 24 hours per day.

Thanks, Jay and everyone else, for making this community a wonderful place. Keep up the great work.

KregRep

[rich b.]

Jay is 100 percent right,I use plywood on a lot of projects and custermers are informed. I believe they really appriciate the honesty..if asked why plywood ,I give my reasons and if I,m ordering a finished or semi finished they know ,just so that they understand the time line may be out of my control ,they also know my plan.its worked out well for me and some are actually surprised by the honesty,especially when they may not of known the difference. I've wound of with custermers for life.

[Gary roofner]

Thanks for your comments Jay very good points.  I am semi retired. I spend a lot of time browsing many websites for inspiration.  Most of my ideas come from others and I do post where I got the project. Very seldom do I build exactly from magazine . As I am  sure you may go to craft fair see something and build something similar.  I have become hook on sites like Anna whites for research on something I want to build as a starting point. A new site is pinterest  another good starting point. Most of the magazine subscriptions are expiring not getting much out of them more online.