Kitchen cabinets and face frame dimensions

[Michael B]

Thanks to some hungry termites I am going to have to build some new bottom cabinets for my kitchen. It a old setup with no new conveniences, so a lazy susan and mostly pull out drawers will be used. My question is mainly on the face frame. does it normally have to be all the same width stock?  My end piece is just 3/4 with a 3/4 overhang but like in the middle it would be 3/4 with 3/4 blocks on each side for the drawer slides. Not sure if thats coming across right. I attached my current layout and need to go back the same because I will reuse the corian countertop.  Any suggestions or advice is appreciated. Thanks Michael

[Jay Boutwell]

Hi Michael, in answer to your question about the width of the stock for face frames.  There are no real set widths for the stock  and it can vary from piece to piece.  It needs to be wide enough to meet the requirements of door, drawer openings and cabinets that are attached to wall corners and provide enough space for the of meeting doors and drawers to one another.

Standard cabinet box material is usually 3/4 inch think.  Face frames that are attached to these need to be figured to allow your overlay of doors and drawer fronts.  Since the most frequent used overlay is 1/2 inche that means that the best width for a stile in mid cabinet building should be 1 and 1/2inches wide but can be as narrow as 1 &1/4 inch.  

When you build cabinets some special consideration needs to be given at locations of the ends and ajoining cabinets at 90 degrees.  You need to be sure that you build with end stiles of at least 2 inches in width to insure that you have enough room to open the door or drawers with sufficient room.  This is also very important when you turn a line of cabinets to meet another line of cabinets in a corner (90 degrees) that there will be enough room for a door or drawer to open past the drawers and doors of the opposing cabinets.   Also remember that the door and or drawer fronts will also extend out from the face frame another 3/4 inch plus any height of door knobs or pulls that you apply.  In most corners I cut the stiles to be 2 & 3/4 " to 3" wide.  On the ends next to walls or appliances I will cut them the same widths.  For mid line stiles I will often use 1 & 1/2" width  which will leave you a 1/2" reveal between the opposing doors or drawer fronts.

 For the top rails I often use 2 and 3/4" to 3' rails width depending on the counter top self edge thickness.  for the bottom rails of cabinets I use 1 inch and hang the rail down 1/4 inch below the cabinet bottom surface.  Mid rails such as between drawers and or a drawer and door I usually use 1 and 1/2" width.

It is common to not place a stile between two doors that swing together as this allows you to have a wide open cabinet by opening both doors.  Depending on how the cabinets are designed I will often fine the need to alter the widths of the face frame pieces.

Up in the upper top right hand corner of the kreg pages you will see a search kreg owner's community.  If you wish to see any of the many articles that I have written about building cabinets simply type in my full name and some phrase such as face frames   (jay boutwell face frames) and search.  It should open up pages of where myself and others have written articles on subjects.  I personally have written articles about most of the phases of building cabinets from boxes to door and even drawers.  Need more help feel free to contact me.  Good luck and work safely.

 

[Michael B]

Is it OK to just mount the slides with screws in front and then back wall, or do they need support in the middle? Some will be used on bigger pan drawers. Thanks Michael

[Jay Boutwell]

Hi Michael,  drawer slides and where or not that they have to be attached in the middle of it length will depend on two things.  How heavy is the drawer and its live load and what type of drawer slide are you using.   If it is the full extension with a 100 # rating or higher then since they are heavy to begin with and since they will allow the drawer to be pulled out to its full length you are better off at least screwing the ends and at least one screw in the middle.  Standard slides for a 24' deep cabinet box will require the 22 inch slide since this allows enough room for the drawer to close without hitting cabinet back and or frameing materials.   The next size up is a 24 inch and will be too long for the drawer to close inside of the case.  ( you normally build the cabinet box at 23 and 1/4 inches deep and adding on the face frame you will add another 3/4 inch in thichness making the box at 24 inche.  That is a standard size and most cabinet hardware is configured to fit a 24 inch deep box.  I have at times, depending on the configeration of how the customer wants their design, build them up to a 26 inch box and put a 24 inch slide in.  The rule of how many screws to install still remains the same at least 3 depending on the weight of drawer and its contents.   The more drawer weight the more screws and of course the more screws they operate smoother but are also harder to install as adding screws in the middle area tend to bow the slide making them harder to operate when pulling them out and or closing them.  I hope this helps

to answer your question.

 

The cheaper Euro style slide in one that opens the drawer only up to 3/4 of it length.  This means that the back 1/4 of the drawer will remain inside the cabinet box and that makes finding items a little harder to see what is in the back as well as harder to remove and replace contents.  The number of screws to use is the same as above.

Michael B said:

Is it OK to just mount the slides with screws in front and then back wall, or do they need support in the middle? Some will be used on bigger pan drawers. Thanks Michael

[Michael B]

Thanks Jay, could you give me some advice on my layout. In the first picture I was doing the sink base and a lazy Susan in the corner but the distant from the sink doors are 20in and the other side is 15in. On picture 2 I was going to have a lazy Susan in a that corner is 16in. I was going to do big drawers on the 53in side. I wish I could do it different but have to match the corian counter. Not sure what size lazy Susan's I can use. Thanks Michael

[Michael B]

I think the pics are switched.

[Jay Boutwell]

Michael the best solution is to set is to first lay out the sink centering the sink in the window if you have one and then determine the left hand edge of the sink cabinet.  Depending on the size of the sink will determine how wide you need to build the sink cabinet.  Then measure the back to the sink cabinet and that will detrermine the width that you have to build a lazy susan in.  Measure the opposite wall and mark a point at 24 inches (standard width of base cabinets)  The remaining distance is what the width of the  left hand side of the lazy susan will be.  Doing the same on the opposite wall will tell you the width of the right hand side wing,   That is the outside of the susan cabinets.  To insure that the susan will fit in to a non-square wall cut a 45 degree clip in the back of the cabinet. 

 

Lay out these measurments on a piece of paper will make this easier to visualize.  by adding  in the width of your face frames will give you the remaining with of the door area. 

 

In an area where space is limited you can build a lazy susan in two configurations with the most popular being  at a 90 degree turn and then ones with a 45 degree front where you use only one door.

 

Check out the building of a large susan in one of my previous post that I did for member Justin Waldron.  I will see if I can find the post and with post it below.

[Jay Boutwell]

Michael, check this out ;   in the search above type in "corner cabinet help for lazy susan"  and you will get a write up about a lazy susan.  Check several of the pages and you will find more discussions about it.

Permalink Reply by Jay Boutwell on February 6, 2011 at 1:25pm Delete

Hi Justin, I have been building cabinets for over 20 years now and have always built my own lazy susan cabinets.  I build them with 36" on the back side of the cabinet.  The cabinet is 24" deep and at the 90 degree door opening it is 12" each.  Use a wing door hinged by either a piano hinge or European wing door hinge set and swing it either direction you need.  I use 3/4 inch material for the box and build it like a conventional lower cabinet box using the above measurments.  I make a interior clip type partition at the extreme rear of the box at the corner and if this has a bar over it I run the wiring for the required electric plug up through this partition. 

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Permalink Reply by Jay Boutwell on February 6, 2011 at 1:31pm

Delete

Justin, another view of same cabinet.

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Permalink Reply by David Dean on February 6, 2011 at 2:14pm

Hey Jay I'll take copy I got all the hard ware but dont have the cabinet

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Permalink Reply by justin waldron on February 6, 2011 at 4:08pm

Hey David!!  No kidding, you been hiding or have I??  HAHA!!  Thanks!
David Dean said:

Hey Justin long time no see.Do what I do look at some other people's corner cabinets I know it sounds wired but you can get some good idels and watching DIY my help to.

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Permalink Reply by justin waldron on February 6, 2011 at 4:09pm

Jay my friend, you are the best!  That's exactly what I was looking for!! 

Jay Boutwell said:

Hi Justin, I have been building cabinets for over 20 years now and have always built my own lazy susan cabinets.  I build them with 36" on the back side of the cabinet.  The cabinet is 24" deep and at the 90 degree door opening it is 12" each.  Use a wing door hinged by either a piano hinge or European wing door hinge set and swing it either direction you need.  I use 3/4 inch material for the box and build it like a conventional lower cabinet box using the above measurments.  I make a interior clip type partition at the extreme rear of the box at the corner and if this has a bar over it I run the wiring for the required electric plug up through this partition. 

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Permalink Reply by Jay Boutwell on February 7, 2011 at 1:04am

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Justin, I have figured the panel sizes for a standard 36" high cabinet providing you are using a 3/4 " thick top and a cabinet without the seperate toe kick under the cabinet box.  If so adjust accordingly.  Also the measurments I gave you in the earlier diagram are correct however please note that this is finish measurments and not allowing for a face frame.  If you are using 3/4" face frame deduct 3/4 " from the  four red colored sections in the atached photo .  It is confusing so measurement should be 22 1/2 " on the floor where it says 23 1/4 ".  Then both end panels need to be 3/4 " less in width as you are adding the 3/4 " back in when adding the face frame.  You will also need to adjust the floor to match the other cabinets.  The one rear panel that is 36" wide in which ever one you have exposed to view after install.  This allows you to hide the end grain of the two end panels. 

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Permalink Reply by justin waldron on February 7, 2011 at 7:32am

Jay,

     I can't thank you enough.  I am with you now, I guess it was a mental block for me and I couldn't get my head around it.  I appreciate the explanation and the time you spent drawing this out for me.

Jay Boutwell said:

Justin, I have figured the panel sizes for a standard 36" high cabinet providing you are using a 3/4 " thick top and a cabinet without the seperate toe kick under the cabinet box.  If so adjust accordingly.  Also the measurments I gave you in the earlier diagram are correct however please note that this is finish measurments and not allowing for a face frame.  If you are using 3/4" face frame deduct 3/4 " from the  four red colored sections in the atached photo .  It is confusing so measurement should be 22 1/2 " on the floor where it says 23 1/4 ".  Then both end panels need to be 3/4 " less in width as you are adding the 3/4 " back in when adding the face frame.  You will also need to adjust the floor to match the other cabinets.  The one rear panel that is 36" wide in which ever one you have exposed to view after install.  This allows you to hide the end grain of the two end panels. 

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Permalink Reply by David Dean on February 7, 2011 at 9:14am

Thanks Jay I got the format now and the bad news all my cabinet's were made in the 50's so I'm going to build new one's it was only a matter of time thanks again.

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Permalink Reply by Paula Geihs on April 1, 2012 at 8:17pm

I am getting ready to build my first lazy susan cabinet.  I have already done the rest of them, but this is a first.  My question is-Some one gave me two round wooden trays with holes in the center.  He didn't know what they had been used for but now I wonder if they came from a lazy susan.  They are NOT pie cut however.  The diameter is 24 inches.  Will they fit in a 36x36 or 37x37 lazy susan cabinet?  Thanks guys!  And thanks to Jay for the drawings and measurements.  amazing help!

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[Jay Boutwell]

Delete

[David Dean]

Hey Jay I'll take copy I got all the hard ware but dont have the cabinet

[justin waldron]

Hey David!!  No kidding, you been hiding or have I??  HAHA!!  Thanks!
David Dean said:

Hey Justin long time no see.Do what I do look at some other people's corner cabinets I know it sounds wired but you can get some good idels and watching DIY my help to.

[justin waldron]

Jay my friend, you are the best!  That's exactly what I was looking for!! 

Jay Boutwell said:

Hi Justin, I have been building cabinets for over 20 years now and have always built my own lazy susan cabinets.  I build them with 36" on the back side of the cabinet.  The cabinet is 24" deep and at the 90 degree door opening it is 12" each.  Use a wing door hinged by either a piano hinge or European wing door hinge set and swing it either direction you need.  I use 3/4 inch material for the box and build it like a conventional lower cabinet box using the above measurments.  I make a interior clip type partition at the extreme rear of the box at the corner and if this has a bar over it I run the wiring for the required electric plug up through this partition. 

[Jay Boutwell]

Delete

[justin waldron]

Jay,

     I can't thank you enough.  I am with you now, I guess it was a mental block for me and I couldn't get my head around it.  I appreciate the explanation and the time you spent drawing this out for me.

Jay Boutwell said:

Justin, I have figured the panel sizes for a standard 36" high cabinet providing you are using a 3/4 " thick top and a cabinet without the seperate toe kick under the cabinet box.  If so adjust accordingly.  Also the measurments I gave you in the earlier diagram are correct however please note that this is finish measurments and not allowing for a face frame.  If you are using 3/4" face frame deduct 3/4 " from the  four red colored sections in the atached photo .  It is confusing so measurement should be 22 1/2 " on the floor where it says 23 1/4 ".  Then both end panels need to be 3/4 " less in width as you are adding the 3/4 " back in when adding the face frame.  You will also need to adjust the floor to match the other cabinets.  The one rear panel that is 36" wide in which ever one you have exposed to view after install.  This allows you to hide the end grain of the two end panels. 

[David Dean]

Thanks Jay I got the format now and the bad news all my cabinet's were made in the 50's so I'm going to build new one's it was only a matter of time thanks again.

[Paula Geihs]

I am getting ready to build my first lazy susan cabinet.  I have already done the rest of them, but this is a first.  My question is-Some one gave me two round wooden trays with holes in the center.  He didn't know what they had been used for but now I wonder if they came from a lazy susan.  They are NOT pie cut however.  The diameter is 24 inches.  Will they fit in a 36x36 or 37x37 lazy susan cabinet?  Thanks guys!  And thanks to Jay for the drawings and measurements.  amazing help!

[Michael B]

Thanks again Jay, I promise this is the last question. Is poplar good enough to build the face frames and shaker doors from?  Or should I be looking at something different?  The will be painted. Thanks Michael

[Jay Boutwell]

Michael Popular is a good wood to build any paint grade project as is is the soft wood of the hard wood species.  It is twisty unless you select your wood.  Holds screws well glues well and stable wood that has a white to a yellow color with some times mineral streaks such as green and even brown and black.  Not worried about you asking questions as that is the reason I am a member here.  It just happens that I have many years of experience and actually teach classes here at times.  i have no problem passing on my experiences and knowledge to anyone at any time if they want to learn.  I am glad you are asking questions.

Michael B said:

Thanks again Jay, I promise this is the last question. Is poplar good enough to build the face frames and shaker doors from?  Or should I be looking at something different?  The will be painted. Thanks Michael

[Michael B]

I don't have a planer, is the poplar from a big box store going to be straight enough to make doors and face frame. I do have a jointer that I have not setup. Or should I invest in a planner now?

[Jay Boutwell]

Michael, A planner only will make a side flat and to a thickness that is the same.  It will not make your lumber straight as it  follows the curves and dips in the side that is on the bed.  A jointer will make your lumber straight and once one side is flat then the thickness planner will flatten the other side and make it the same thickness.  

Lumber from store to store will vary and some is good and some not so good.  Generally a person can sort through it and find reasonable lumber that is uniform in grain and color.   The most important thing in face frame is having it uniform in thickness and it needs to have straight edges.  The bows and waves can usually be remedied by how you glue and attach the face frame to the case as they are pulled out of the lumber as you attach it to the case.  Doors is a different matter as they have to be near perfect in order to shut with out having the edges bowed up and standing proud of the face frame.  ( crooked doors that bow up leaving the door touching at the top or bottom only and leaving a large gap between the face frame and door .  These are worse in simple thin panel doors.

It is best in doing woodwork to buy your material from a lumber supplier that sells to cabinet shops as the lumber is better quality and in many cases cheaper.
 
Michael B said:

I don't have a planer, is the poplar from a big box store going to be straight enough to make doors and face frame. I do have a jointer that I have not setup. Or should I invest in a planner now?

[Tom Wagner]

I would suggest making sure your overlays and reveals are the same. If you mix reveals within a kitchen it will not look right.  Typically I use 1/1/2" stiles.  With 1/2" over lays this gives you a 1" reveal.  If you butt cabinets you get 2" reveals between the door edges.  This is why most mfg will use 3" center stiles, you still get the same reveal.  I myself try to always use butt doors on double door cabinets, sometimes, you need the center stile to give support to a long shelf.  I usually try to keep butt door cabinets to 36" wide or less.  If I have a large, say 48" cabinet, I would rather use two 24" cabinets.  That way it gives me more adjustability on the shelves.   All this being said, I always built my cabinets to the closest 1/16" of a in.  As mentioned when you get to corners you need to allow for clearance of doors, drawers and hardware.  Good luck and if you have any questions I would be happy to try and assist you.