Not a panacea

[JB]

As wonderful as the Kreg jig is, it is simply not a good substitute for fine joinery! Look up joinery tests in Fine Woodworking, would you rather build an heirloom piece of furniture with tried and true solid wood tenons or butt joints and screws?

[gdatomic]

Nearby us is a fine furniture maker. When you look at their work, the joinery is fascinating.

 

When it adds market value, they use decorative joining like dovetails. But the rest of the time, they build with the joint that they like for the situation and which is fastest to build.

 

So, look over a dresser and you'll find 3 or 4 types of joints. Dovetails on the fronts of drawers, dowels on the back, pocketholes pulling the dresser together, brackets where needed, ...

 

Seems to me that it all depends on needs and goals. I build personal projects only (not commercial). And almost entirely with pocket holes because that works for me. And, so far, I haven't found something I want to build where Kreg is wrong - with the exception of some thin pieces routed for sliding doors. 

[Ken Darga]

Popular Uses for Pocket Joints:

While the most common use for pocket joints is in face frames, there are many other possible applications. Pocket joints can be used to join edges to make a table or cabinet top. They are also very effective when attaching relatively thick edge banding to plywood or a table top. Pocket joints can even be used to connect angled joints in woodworking projects such as braces for leg rails.

[Angie Severson]

Yes, I would rather build a piece of furniture with butt joints and screws; otherwise it wouldn't get built because I'm a novice and probably don't have the patience for it yet.

[Betty]

I'm very new at using pocket joints and I can definitely say my projects are enjoyable again.  Any "trick" to meet this goal is a great value to me and many others.  Just as I'd never want to go without my brad nailer again, I'd also never want to have to go without my Kreg Jig! I can only hope innovative solutions continue to make their way into my workshop.

[Franklin Q Levin]

Pocket hole joinery is a delight. Regardless of the design I always try to use this style of joinery whenever possible. To me appearance and function trump living in the past.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Coming into a forum dedicated to a particular tool and proclaiming it to be inferior is kinda like posting about the superiority of tofu on bbqsteaks.net ... doncha think?

JB said, "A 'handmade' tenon is not that difficult to make, all you need is a drill press, some forstner bits, a few chisels, a table saw or band saw and a little practice."

Gee, is that all? Nope. Like many experienced people, you have done it so long you don't see the complexity any more. You also need the space to set up all those tools, clearance to work around them, a mallet for the chisels, some clamps to hold things, etc. And the money to buy them.

The absolute joy of the jig and pocketholes is that all it takes is straight cutting, a hand-held drill, and a couple of clamps to quickly build something that is simple and sturdy. It may not be "fine woodworking" in your eyes, but Ana White has 30,000 fans on facebook who are posting pictures of things they made that fill a need in their lives.

I'm updating a kitchen that has cabinets made with pockethole joins. Built in 1983, endured three children (two of them ADHD boys) and mucho neglect. The cabinet frames are still square and solid.

********
The article you point to does not give the results of testing on pockethole joints, so it "refudiates" nothing.

Different test methods, end points and test equipment would give different values, so you can't take the 707 pounds mentioned and directly compare them to the 1005 pounds of the other test.

To repudiate the claim, you need to test joints of the same wood on the same equipment to the same end point.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

JB said, "Nope, I'm just amazed at how many people are using this joint for the wrong purposes, don't regret a thing!"

So ... how about explaining where the joint is appropriate, which other joints work better for what, etc. Just saying "you're doing it wrong" is not helping anyone improve their skills. That's the constructive part of constructive criticism.

[John Schaben]

That my friend, is called experience and common sense. No one, in a forum environment,  would be able to explain all the different combinations, variations and permutations that can possibly occur to make that decision. Each situation really needs to be handled on an individual basis and that is one of the great advantages of forums like this. If not sure, ask, someone is always ready to help.

Tsu Dho Nimh said:

JB said, "Nope, I'm just amazed at how many people are using this joint for the wrong purposes, don't regret a thing!"

So ... how about explaining where the joint is appropriate, which other joints work better for what, etc. Just saying "you're doing it wrong" is not helping anyone improve their skills. That's the constructive part of constructive criticism.

[JB]

Sure looks like a pocket screw butt joint to me.... and how can you challenge a test if they refuse to name the source or give results of the "independent" testing??

Making a whole table out of nothing but butt joints and screws is just courting disaster. I don't care how many followers someone has, just shows how the masses can be mislead down the wrong path.

Tsu Dho Nimh said:

Coming into a forum dedicated to a particular tool and proclaiming it to be inferior is kinda like posting about the superiority of tofu on bbqsteaks.net ... doncha think?

JB said, "A 'handmade' tenon is not that difficult to make, all you need is a drill press, some forstner bits, a few chisels, a table saw or band saw and a little practice."

Gee, is that all? Nope. Like many experienced people, you have done it so long you don't see the complexity any more. You also need the space to set up all those tools, clearance to work around them, a mallet for the chisels, some clamps to hold things, etc. And the money to buy them.

The absolute joy of the jig and pocketholes is that all it takes is straight cutting, a hand-held drill, and a couple of clamps to quickly build something that is simple and sturdy. It may not be "fine woodworking" in your eyes, but Ana White has 30,000 fans on facebook who are posting pictures of things they made that fill a need in their lives.

I'm updating a kitchen that has cabinets made with pockethole joins. Built in 1983, endured three children (two of them ADHD boys) and mucho neglect. The cabinet frames are still square and solid.

********
The article you point to does not give the results of testing on pockethole joints, so it "refudiates" nothing.

Different test methods, end points and test equipment would give different values, so you can't take the 707 pounds mentioned and directly compare them to the 1005 pounds of the other test.

To repudiate the claim, you need to test joints of the same wood on the same equipment to the same end point.

[justin waldron]

JB,

     The testing was done by Fine Woodworking magazine about a year ago or so I believe.  My feelings are on the whole matter is use what's necessary for what you're doing.  I love the pocket screws and just because I own a mortiser and a tenoning jig doesn't mean I threw the Kreg away!!!

JB said:

Sure looks like a pocket screw butt joint to me.... and how can you challenge a test if they refuse to name the source or give results of the "independent" testing??

Making a whole table out of nothing but butt joints and screws is just courting disaster. I don't care how many followers someone has, just shows how the masses can be mislead down the wrong path.

Tsu Dho Nimh said:

Coming into a forum dedicated to a particular tool and proclaiming it to be inferior is kinda like posting about the superiority of tofu on bbqsteaks.net ... doncha think?

JB said, "A 'handmade' tenon is not that difficult to make, all you need is a drill press, some forstner bits, a few chisels, a table saw or band saw and a little practice."

Gee, is that all? Nope. Like many experienced people, you have done it so long you don't see the complexity any more. You also need the space to set up all those tools, clearance to work around them, a mallet for the chisels, some clamps to hold things, etc. And the money to buy them.

The absolute joy of the jig and pocketholes is that all it takes is straight cutting, a hand-held drill, and a couple of clamps to quickly build something that is simple and sturdy. It may not be "fine woodworking" in your eyes, but Ana White has 30,000 fans on facebook who are posting pictures of things they made that fill a need in their lives.

I'm updating a kitchen that has cabinets made with pockethole joins. Built in 1983, endured three children (two of them ADHD boys) and mucho neglect. The cabinet frames are still square and solid.

********
The article you point to does not give the results of testing on pockethole joints, so it "refudiates" nothing.

Different test methods, end points and test equipment would give different values, so you can't take the 707 pounds mentioned and directly compare them to the 1005 pounds of the other test.

To repudiate the claim, you need to test joints of the same wood on the same equipment to the same end point.

[Adam Adolph]

Amen!  I have used my kreg to build cabinets and I feel that it is just as strong as any other.

Jay Boutwell said:

I have to absolutely agree with Ray and Geoff and their comments about the pocket screw technology. When it comes to the pocket screw system that Kreg Tools has developed, there is no system faster or as good.  They are by far better than nails and more accurate than most doweling systems. 

True there are other types of jointry of which have their place in woodworking.  Those of us whom have had to find and use the fastest method of doing a satisfactory job in order to survive certainly appreciate Kreg Tools for the developement of the Kreg pocket screw.  I base this on my own experience of over 20 years building cabinets and furniture.  I started using the kreg jig when they were a young company and had just started making the jigs.  I have one of the very first on the market.  When I first started building cabinets Kreg Jig had not yet been developed and I used the datto, glue, and nail system.  At that time that was the fastest and most secure wood joint to make in cabinetary.  Then the pocket screw system was introduced and I began using it.  I have countless numbers of cabinets strung all over the Pacific Northwest of which have gave the owners good service and still in good repair and still giving the same service as the day I installed them.  Some of these have with stood countless door slambing and rough use by children and adults of whom really do not use the apporiate care of furniture, and still they and hanging there right on the wall where I put them.

What I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with a butt joint held together with properly applied pocket screws.  In fact there is nothing wrong with a butt joint that has no glue in it either.  When the pocket screw was first introduced by Kreg Tool company there was independent labratory tests done comparing the pocket screw and the dowel.  The screw proved to be stronger of the two.

Other joints?   I'm familiar with all the mortise tendon joints. dattoes and dowel joints biscuits and splines, tongue and grove, bridle joints, lap joints that are imaginable.  I have used them all and I have even gone as far as using "fox wedge joints" .   I have and still frequently use them on special appliations.  But building the normal cabinet I resort to the tight fitting joints, pocket screws and glue.  They work just fine. 

I can just see myself or any other cabinet builder trying to compete  for a living using a joint other than those made by a pocket screw joint.  We would be broke on the first cabinet job.  The pocket screw is just like using a steel bolt , you just don't see the end with the nut on it.

Kreg Tool has been good to all of us developing and providing a method where the occassional wood worker can make a decent fitting and functioning wood joint and can do this with out a large investment in specialized equiptment.  From seeing all the projects on this community it is very evident that is the case.  That is my case and i'm here to prove it.  

[Adam Adolph]

I am a hobby woodworker and really don't have money to buy all the "fancy" tools that some people do.  I do not own a drill press or a table saw.  I do own a power miter box (or chop saw).  I also own a plethora of cordless Dewalt tools in both 12v max and 18v.  I build what I need the easiest way I can because I also do not have the room for all the big bulky fancy woodworking tools.  I have built a set of draws for my rental houses kitchen cabinets using my kreg jig and they are almost stronger than the 50+ year old cabinets and they are definitely stronger than the old drawers.

 

It is arrogant asses like you that make newbies to the hobby like me want to sell the tools that I do own and give up before I can get a workshop and all the proper tools purchased.  While you may have been doing this longer than I've been alive you probably didn't start out using dovetails and all those multiple fancy pants joints either.  I know from watching "New Yankee" that it takes time and practice to learn these joints. I also know that it takes the proper tools that some of us do not have.

 

My only question for you BJ is:  unless the joint is obvious like dovetail or dowel how can you tell just by looking at it it isn't a "fancy, quality" joint?  I mean if I used mortise and tendon joints, and you looked at it from the front or side would you know that is what it is or would you assume that it was pocket screws?  Also, I can plug the holes and put a finish on the project making it look nice and harder to tell what I used for joinery.