Joining vertical slats to horizontal pieces

[Chris Gilde]

Building my first major project:  an Arts and Crafts style desk.  I have two questions for anyone who can offer advice:

For the side legs system I plan to use vertical slats joined to upper and lower horizontal pieces (as illustrated) using pocket holes and then using filler plugs.  Wood material is all hemlock. Slat widths are 2.5" joined to 3/4" inch material.  

Since I have never done a project at this level before, any advice for clamping, gluing, and screwing?  

Is 2.5" width stock too narrow for two pocket holes on each end? Would it be best to join the vertical slats to the upper and lower horizontal pieces first and then join to the legs?

Finally, what's the best way to match hemlock material to available wood plugs?  I plan to use a a lighter stain finish.

Thanks; I'd be lost without this forum!

Chris

 

[Gary roofner]

It looks like none of the pocket holes would be visible the drawers would hide the pocket holes in the top and the bottom shelf would hide them on the bottom .

[Jay Boutwell]

Chris, although the pocket screw technology produces a very strong joint I would however resort to a mortise and tendon joinery  for the connections of the lower and top rails on the desk.  After this you could use the pocket screw and joint the other stiles (verticals) to the rails (horizontal) members on the side pieces.  Make the connections of these by boring the pocket holes so that they would be located on the inside of the desk.  This would help hide the pocket holes.

Use some of the same stock, which you indicate is to be hemlock, and using a 3/8 inch plug cutter cut your own plugs.   once all the joinery is completed then apply the plugs using glue and flush cut and sand off to a smooth surface.

For the horizontal rail members of the front and back of the desk,  I would again elect to use the mortise and tendon.  My reason of choice is that there will be continued racking and stressing of the joints during the life of its use. 

If you make all the corner connections secure at the top and bottom for the joints it will be a far stronger joinery that pocket screws.  The remainder of the joinery I would then elect to go for the pocket screws.

In the mortise and tendon joints I would use a good glue to insure that they will be tight and not fail after a period of time.  My favorite glue for this is "tite bond original ".  

As for wood size the slats size you indicated is about correct for what you are doing and use of two pocket holes on each end are proper.  For the rails on the top and bottom of both the ends I would use 4 inch wide material and cut the lower rail arches from this.  For the top and bottom rail of the back I would use 4 inch.  The front I would use 4 inch width as well cutting the arch (as pictured) from the stock.

When it comes to the top rail and since it pictures drawers in the top  I would  use two  3  inch width and turn them so they would be flat to the floor.  This gives you the method of installing drawers without cutting the front rail.  Divide this with a short piece of stock using pocket holes making the sides of the drawer openings.

For the four posts in the corners I would elect to use all 3 inch stock glued up from 1 x 3's.  This will give you both strength and also give you the post look in the front as pictured.

Another method would be to use 3 inch width on the front and 2&1/4" on the sides and glue and pocket screw them to one another making them appear the same width but you would hide the seam on the ends. 

Here you could use my method of building a post and cut a 45 degree angle on the side piece of the and bore the pocket holes into the front piece.  Then add glue to the 45 degree miter and lay it flat onto the miter keeping the inside square and even allowing the over hang of the 45 degree miter to extend outward.   (cutting the miter will make the angle longer that the thickness of the non mitered piece)  Once this is dry cut and sand flush making a nice almost invisible joint.   The reason I do this in place of cutting a miter on both pieces and gluing them together is that it makes a better looking post.  (note that the actual glue joint will be about 1/4 inch from the corner of the post. 

This is another method of hiding your joinery.  It fools your eye and most will look for the glue joint at the normal location in the very corner of the joint.  When they look for it, there it is not there but about a 1/4 inch away from the corner.  ( it moves about 1/4" when using 3/4 inch material because the miter is about 1/4 inch longer that the un-mitered 3/4" material.)  This is a good trick when you go to building miters and turning angles in building projects.

With a long angle joint it would be hard to hide it if it was done using the two 45 degree method.

For more information there is a post that I did on this a good while ago that you can find on my page on the left of the page under discussions.  The heading on it is something like:  "turning angles in cabinets using angles"   .  A trick for you to help hold and clamp the joint is to use simple plastic electricians tape and stretch it tight around the joint.  Since it has a memory of sort it will tend to return to it pre stretched shape and will there fore get tighter while your glue dries.  Glue does not stick well to plastic so it is almost a clean glue .

Need more help, feel free to contact me.

[Rita B.]

I just completed one similar to this for the first time this past week.  Yes, you will be able to use pocket holes in your 2.5.   I was able to do it using 1.5 with success.   I used the Kreg right angle clamps to hold the vertical and horizontal pieces together.  You will also need to watch your spacing.   I cut wood pieces and used as spacers once I had determined what I needed.   I attached all my slats with glue and pocket screws then attached the legs.  I had to experiment with correct screw length for the legs since I was attaching the legs which were a different thickness than the side rails.   I cannot comment on the hemlock plugs for your finish but there is a thread about flush cuts that I questioned and many were able to offer solutions.   Good luck with your project.   I cannot swear that the info I gave is correct, only that is how I did mine and so far so good.  I installed two drawers to it today and hope to start the sanding for finishing tomorrow.

Or.....ignore this and do what the other guys said  LOL!   Told you I was a newbie!

[Jay Boutwell]

Chris, I got to thinking about the 45 degree method and didn't want you to get confused with using this as a method to make the post that looks like a mission or arts and crafts furniture.  Doing this this way requires two such miter cuts and three pieces of wood.  It leaves  the post that is square but it will have a round corner. My intentions were to show you an alternative methods of making a post.  If I was building your project I would use the full width piece with a narrow piece as I described in the first method or use a glued up post.  Sorry if I confused you.

[Chris Gilde]

Amazingly detailed suggestions for which I am very much appreciative.  I am afraid mortise and tenon my be beyond my skill level, but I will learn what I can.

Jay Boutwell said:

Chris, although the pocket screw technology produces a very strong joint I would however resort to a mortise and tendon joinery  for the connections of the lower and top rails on the desk.  After this you could use the pocket screw and joint the other stiles (verticals) to the rails (horizontal) members on the side pieces.  Make the connections of these by boring the pocket holes so that they would be located on the inside of the desk.  This would help hide the pocket holes.

Use some of the same stock, which you indicate is to be hemlock, and using a 3/8 inch plug cutter cut your own plugs.   once all the joinery is completed then apply the plugs using glue and flush cut and sand off to a smooth surface.

For the horizontal rail members of the front and back of the desk,  I would again elect to use the mortise and tendon.  My reason of choice is that there will be continued racking and stressing of the joints during the life of its use. 

If you make all the corner connections secure at the top and bottom for the joints it will be a far stronger joinery that pocket screws.  The remainder of the joinery I would then elect to go for the pocket screws.

In the mortise and tendon joints I would use a good glue to insure that they will be tight and not fail after a period of time.  My favorite glue for this is "tite bond original ".  

As for wood size the slats size you indicated is about correct for what you are doing and use of two pocket holes on each end are proper.  For the rails on the top and bottom of both the ends I would use 4 inch wide material and cut the lower rail arches from this.  For the top and bottom rail of the back I would use 4 inch.  The front I would use 4 inch width as well cutting the arch (as pictured) from the stock.

When it comes to the top rail and since it pictures drawers in the top  I would  use two  3  inch width and turn them so they would be flat to the floor.  This gives you the method of installing drawers without cutting the front rail.  Divide this with a short piece of stock using pocket holes making the sides of the drawer openings.

For the four posts in the corners I would elect to use all 3 inch stock glued up from 1 x 3's.  This will give you both strength and also give you the post look in the front as pictured.

Another method would be to use 3 inch width on the front and 2&1/4" on the sides and glue and pocket screw them to one another making them appear the same width but you would hide the seam on the ends. 

Here you could use my method of building a post and cut a 45 degree angle on the side piece of the and bore the pocket holes into the front piece.  Then add glue to the 45 degree miter and lay it flat onto the miter keeping the inside square and even allowing the over hang of the 45 degree miter to extend outward.   (cutting the miter will make the angle longer that the thickness of the non mitered piece)  Once this is dry cut and sand flush making a nice almost invisible joint.   The reason I do this in place of cutting a miter on both pieces and gluing them together is that it makes a better looking post.  (note that the actual glue joint will be about 1/4 inch from the corner of the post. 

This is another method of hiding your joinery.  It fools your eye and most will look for the glue joint at the normal location in the very corner of the joint.  When they look for it, there it is not there but about a 1/4 inch away from the corner.  ( it moves about 1/4" when using 3/4 inch material because the miter is about 1/4 inch longer that the un-mitered 3/4" material.)  This is a good trick when you go to building miters and turning angles in building projects.

With a long angle joint it would be hard to hide it if it was done using the two 45 degree method.

For more information there is a post that I did on this a good while ago that you can find on my page on the left of the page under discussions.  The heading on it is something like:  "turning angles in cabinets using angles"   .  A trick for you to help hold and clamp the joint is to use simple plastic electricians tape and stretch it tight around the joint.  Since it has a memory of sort it will tend to return to it pre stretched shape and will there fore get tighter while your glue dries.  Glue does not stick well to plastic so it is almost a clean glue .

Need more help, feel free to contact me.

[Chris Gilde]

Thank you for the insight and advice.  Very helpful.

Rita Baske said:

I just completed one similar to this for the first time this past week.  Yes, you will be able to use pocket holes in your 2.5.   I was able to do it using 1.5 with success.   I used the Kreg right angle clamps to hold the vertical and horizontal pieces together.  You will also need to watch your spacing.   I cut wood pieces and used as spacers once I had determined what I needed.   I attached all my slats with glue and pocket screws then attached the legs.  I had to experiment with correct screw length for the legs since I was attaching the legs which were a different thickness than the side rails.   I cannot comment on the hemlock plugs for your finish but there is a thread about flush cuts that I questioned and many were able to offer solutions.   Good luck with your project.   I cannot swear that the info I gave is correct, only that is how I did mine and so far so good.  I installed two drawers to it today and hope to start the sanding for finishing tomorrow.

Or.....ignore this and do what the other guys said  LOL!   Told you I was a newbie!

[Jay Boutwell]

Chris you are more than welcome,  should you need more help, I will be more that glad to help you in anyway I can.  If you decide that you wish to use the mortise and tendon,  then I can help you with that too.
 
Chris Gilde said:

Amazingly detailed suggestions for which I am very much appreciative.  I am afraid mortise and tenon my be beyond my skill level, but I will learn what I can.

Jay Boutwell said:

Chris, although the pocket screw technology produces a very strong joint I would however resort to a mortise and tendon joinery  for the connections of the lower and top rails on the desk.  After this you could use the pocket screw and joint the other stiles (verticals) to the rails (horizontal) members on the side pieces.  Make the connections of these by boring the pocket holes so that they would be located on the inside of the desk.  This would help hide the pocket holes.

Use some of the same stock, which you indicate is to be hemlock, and using a 3/8 inch plug cutter cut your own plugs.   once all the joinery is completed then apply the plugs using glue and flush cut and sand off to a smooth surface.

For the horizontal rail members of the front and back of the desk,  I would again elect to use the mortise and tendon.  My reason of choice is that there will be continued racking and stressing of the joints during the life of its use. 

If you make all the corner connections secure at the top and bottom for the joints it will be a far stronger joinery that pocket screws.  The remainder of the joinery I would then elect to go for the pocket screws.

In the mortise and tendon joints I would use a good glue to insure that they will be tight and not fail after a period of time.  My favorite glue for this is "tite bond original ".  

As for wood size the slats size you indicated is about correct for what you are doing and use of two pocket holes on each end are proper.  For the rails on the top and bottom of both the ends I would use 4 inch wide material and cut the lower rail arches from this.  For the top and bottom rail of the back I would use 4 inch.  The front I would use 4 inch width as well cutting the arch (as pictured) from the stock.

When it comes to the top rail and since it pictures drawers in the top  I would  use two  3  inch width and turn them so they would be flat to the floor.  This gives you the method of installing drawers without cutting the front rail.  Divide this with a short piece of stock using pocket holes making the sides of the drawer openings.

For the four posts in the corners I would elect to use all 3 inch stock glued up from 1 x 3's.  This will give you both strength and also give you the post look in the front as pictured.

Another method would be to use 3 inch width on the front and 2&1/4" on the sides and glue and pocket screw them to one another making them appear the same width but you would hide the seam on the ends. 

Here you could use my method of building a post and cut a 45 degree angle on the side piece of the and bore the pocket holes into the front piece.  Then add glue to the 45 degree miter and lay it flat onto the miter keeping the inside square and even allowing the over hang of the 45 degree miter to extend outward.   (cutting the miter will make the angle longer that the thickness of the non mitered piece)  Once this is dry cut and sand flush making a nice almost invisible joint.   The reason I do this in place of cutting a miter on both pieces and gluing them together is that it makes a better looking post.  (note that the actual glue joint will be about 1/4 inch from the corner of the post. 

This is another method of hiding your joinery.  It fools your eye and most will look for the glue joint at the normal location in the very corner of the joint.  When they look for it, there it is not there but about a 1/4 inch away from the corner.  ( it moves about 1/4" when using 3/4 inch material because the miter is about 1/4 inch longer that the un-mitered 3/4" material.)  This is a good trick when you go to building miters and turning angles in building projects.

With a long angle joint it would be hard to hide it if it was done using the two 45 degree method.

For more information there is a post that I did on this a good while ago that you can find on my page on the left of the page under discussions.  The heading on it is something like:  "turning angles in cabinets using angles"   .  A trick for you to help hold and clamp the joint is to use simple plastic electricians tape and stretch it tight around the joint.  Since it has a memory of sort it will tend to return to it pre stretched shape and will there fore get tighter while your glue dries.  Glue does not stick well to plastic so it is almost a clean glue .

Need more help, feel free to contact me.

[Rita B.]

Chris,  I had mentioned that I used the right angle clamps and that was a error.   I used face clamps while attaching my slats and a solid flat surface for assembly is a must.  I too hope to expand my skills using different types of joinery.   I am enjoying my "first" when attempting projects.  For example, with the table I am working on, I tapered legs for a first time.  I did not have plans for my table but took inspiration from a set of table and chairs that I currently have.   I have heard many others mention that they learn something from each project they build.  I think that is the beauty of the craft is that with each project you learn what works and what could be done better.   I know it is a truth for me.   Enjoy your high five moments as they come along :)

[Ken Darga]

Chris,

Mortise and tenon can be learned---

It just takes practice.

Your skill level willl increase as you progress.

Once you get onto it, you'll plan many of your projects, using this joinery method.

Start with making practice joints from cut-off's---

2x stock is larger as easier to work with.  

It's easy to machine, with simple tools.

All you need is a drill, saw, chisels, and practice. 

I've seen some large structures that contained mostly mortise and tenon joints, dowels---

and it was all done using hand tools.

I learned to use hand tools before using power tools, and that was after power tools were available.

Chris Gilde said:

>>>...  I am afraid mortise and tenon my be beyond my skill level, but I will learn what I can. br/>

[Chris Gilde]

Thanks for the correction.  You're right about learning from each project.

Rita Baske said:

Chris,  I had mentioned that I used the right angle clamps and that was a error.   I used face clamps while attaching my slats and a solid flat surface for assembly is a must.  I too hope to expand my skills using different types of joinery.   I am enjoying my "first" when attempting projects.  For example, with the table I am working on, I tapered legs for a first time.  I did not have plans for my table but took inspiration from a set of table and chairs that I currently have.   I have heard many others mention that they learn something from each project they build.  I think that is the beauty of the craft is that with each project you learn what works and what could be done better.   I know it is a truth for me.   Enjoy your high five moments as they come along :)

[Chris Gilde]

Thanks for your remarks:  frankly, I've never really considered taking the time to learn the technique because pocket hole joinery seems much friendlier (and forgiving) to novices such as myself and requires less technique.  I have always admired woodworkers who know how to use hand tools first.  I guess that's when it becomes art.

Ken Darga said:

Chris,

Mortise and tenon can be learned---

It just takes practice.

Your skill level willl increase as you progress.

Once you get onto it, you'll plan many of your projects, using this joinery method.

Start with making practice joints from cut-off's---

2x stock is larger as easier to work with.  

It's easy to machine, with simple tools.

All you need is a drill, saw, chisels, and practice. 

I've seen some large structures that contained mostly mortise and tenon joints, dowels---

and it was all done using hand tools.

I learned to use hand tools before using power tools, and that was after power tools were available.

Chris Gilde said:

>>>...  I am afraid mortise and tenon my be beyond my skill level, but I will learn what I can. br/>

[Ken Darga]

Chris,

We were all beginner wood-workers, at one time.

One learns a lot by doing.

Pocket hole joinery makes wood joinery so much easier and faster.

Pocket hole joinery is not the answer to all joining.

One should learn the other joinery methods---

many are necessary for some stuff.

Chris Gilde said:

Thanks for your remarks:  frankly, I've never really considered taking the time to learn the technique because pocket hole joinery seems much friendlier (and forgiving) to novices such as myself and requires less technique.  I have always admired woodworkers who know how to use hand tools first.  I guess that's when it becomes art.