kreg to make cabinet doors

[karin]

have just become the proud owner of a kreg jig & have big plans for it: we are building a new house & I hope to make the kitchen cabinets, vanities and doors for built-in wardrobes ...

I am writing to solicit advice on making cabinet doors with kreg joints: good idea or not? pitfalls? I was basically hoping to make simple face frames & then fill in with plywood or beadboard panels.

I downloaded the kreg booklet on cabinet making - and when it comes to cabinet doors, it talks about stub-tenonon and cope-and-stick joinery for door frames. Hmm, why not pocket screws? what am I missing???

[A K]

hi do you have the link for this, I have been looking for it but couldnt find it on the site

[karin]

www.kregtool.com/downloadoffer  - you'll need a coupon code (I received one with my new kreg jig)

[johnfregeau]

Here's a link with some good info on making raised panel doors with the kreg jig and a table saw.  You could also make shaker panel door by making 1/4" grooves in the rails and stiles with a table saw and then using the kreg jig for the joints.   

http://ana-white.com/2011/05/raised-panel-cabinet-doors

 

[Jay Boutwell]

Karin, one of the main reasons I object to the method of using pocket screws is that the joints are all butt joints and the service you will get from this type of door is not near the quality needed for a set of cabinets for your home.  The second objection it the large pocket holes that you either have to fill or just  ignore and these are unattractive in a door.

It is much more desireable to use other forms of joints such as the mortise and tenon and the cope and stick jointery. 

Using a table saw you can cut 1/4 inch wide groove in the stile and rails and then using the table saw you can cut a tennon by adjusting the saw blade height to cut a 1/4 thich tennon by running it across the blade multiple times until you have a 1/4 long tennon.  Use the miter guage to pass the rail over the blade nibbeling away the material and turn over and repeat the process.   In this method you will have to add 1/2 inch to the total length of the rail to allow you the material for cutting the 1/4 inch tennon on each end.

Another way would be to build yourself a tennon jig that will allow you to pass the rails over the blade with the tennon standing verticle to the saw table.  Here the blade is again set to a height of 1/4 inch and set to cut away the outer material leaving you a total width of a 1/4 inch tennon.   Depending upon the style of table saw fence you have will depend on the type of device you can rig up to slide down the fence.  you can find many examples of home made tennon jigs on the enternet.  There are also other methods of producing the mortise and tenon joint on a router table.

On flat panel doors my one objection to them is the tendence of them warping and they never seem to stay flat.

The kreg pocket screw will not be the failure of the door, but it is the wood that makes up the joint.  Here you have the long grain glued to the end grain.  The screw will not break but the wood will break away from the screw due to the frequent opening and shutting of the doors. 

 

[David Dean]

Well karin I build alote of things and I have build door's with 1/4" panels and door's with glass and morrir's as well and hope that some of these pic's help.

[karin]

jay, may thanks for your detailed explanation! glue being more reliable than steel (screw) was not immediately obvious to me - but then wood is derived from something that once lived and allowed to have its pecularities! May I ask: what about other `glue' type joints like dowel joints for frames?

david, your pics make me drool - yes, that's about what I was aiming at.

[Jay Boutwell]

Karin, the thing about using pocket screws to build a cabinet door is not my choice of other methods  due to the fact that you are gluing long grain on the stiles and end grain on the rails is not the strongest of a glue joint.  Then when you bore out two 3/8" pocket holes for the screws you have weakened the rail piece.  The steel pocket screws are strong however the wood that surrounds the screw is what fails as this is end grain held only by the wood fibers and the glue you add.  From experience I know that cabinet door joints are exposed to a good deal of pressures from repeated opening and closing of the door and then there is the occassional slambing of the door by either habit or by accident that will stress these joints.  Long time use of these doors will eventually cause a failure in the joints.  If you add filler plugs to the pocket holes you do strengthen the rail some however the mechanical fasterner is still at the very end of the bored pocket screw and therefore the screw is still in a thin  area of end grain.  This is where the grain begin to crack and seperate.  There is nothing else to hold the joint together other than the glue that is in the end grain of the rail. 

Also of importance to note is that the door hinges are usually spring loaded and this again adds to the joint pressure when the door is pulled shut by the spring and the sudden stopping of the door.  If the door closing was always controlled by a gentle hand the pocket joint would last indefinately however I know this is not the case. 

Doors get shut by the push of a hand, sometimes in a forceful way,  and or the pull of a spring loaded hinge and even kicked shut on lower cabinet doors. 

Being a cabinet maker I know that there are better joints for cabinet doors and my preference is either the cope and stick method or the mortise tennon method.  In both joints you have wood with more glue surface verses the  butt joint with a limited amount of end grain to long grain glue surface.  In a cope stick joint you have end grain to long grain glue surface however not only is there more surface for glue but the shape of the  cope puts a  tongue into the long grain much like a tennon. The end grain also fits aroung the long grain in a shape that the end grain is actually pushing and pulling against long grain.  With this joint being glued it is an extreamely strong joint.

The mortise- tennon method is much the same as glue surface is more and then there is a end grain tennon entering into a long grain pocket.  With this joint glued it is also a very strong joint.

If i was to compare a biscuit joint I would place it in the same catagory as the pocket screw with the exception of not having a distracting pocket screw bore to look at everytime the door is opened.  Many may not object to this distraction.  I know that I could not get away with it with many customers as they are acustomed to seeing a flat door surface on both sides of the door.  The biscuit does not enter very far into the joints but does allow more surface for glue, so again I place it low for strength in a door joint.

A dowel joint if properly executed is a strong joint simply because it is a longer fastner in to both the end grain and long grain of the joint with a greater glue surface.  Therefore I place it ahead of the pocket screw and biscuit joint.

Don't get me wrong about pocket screw door joints as many find them to work well for them however, like I stated above, there are much better looking and far stronger joints that have many higher points in construction.  Also remember it is not the pocket screw that will fail, it is the wood that surrounds the screw.  Also of importance to remember is often the poor execution in building the joint and or the selection of the material that leads to joint failures even in the best of methods of construction.

The above is my opinions gained from building and repairing many hundreds of doors.

[Ken Darga]

Jay,

Great info!

[Jay Boutwell]

Thanks Ken, I have seen many failures of door joints in all kinds of joints.  There is much  to take in to consideration in any joint construction from the material type to the workmanship in its execution.  Therefore it is hard to place a certainty into the durability of any joint in any wood.  All we can do is use the informtion that we have and do our best.  
 
Ken Darga said:

Jay,

Great info!

[karin]

thanks Jay & Doug for your comments - all makes a lot of sense!

I am based in Australia & scene here is a little different -)

Douglas Harwood said:

Karin,

I agree with what Jay and what others have stated about cope & stick joinery.  The Kreg jig is great for making boxes and some down and dirty joinery, but for your kitchen cabinets, maybe not the best option.  I hate to admit it, but have you checked out the "off the rack" cabinets at say Lowe's?  I have priced out some solid hickory and solid oak cabinets(non-finished) in routine sizes.  You simply could not build them for the price, especially out of solid wood.  Just a thought.  I know how the little surprises in new home construction add up.  Where you can really save some big bucks is getting someone like Jay or another cabinet builder to help with your layout and install them yourself.  I like to hang all mine on "french cleats".  There are plenty of opportunities to save money with your new jig, but I'm not convinced with kitchen cabinets.

Regards,

Doug