Not a panacea

[JB]

As wonderful as the Kreg jig is, it is simply not a good substitute for fine joinery! Look up joinery tests in Fine Woodworking, would you rather build an heirloom piece of furniture with tried and true solid wood tenons or butt joints and screws?

[duane ribron]

 

Please stop acting so superior that you have to put down others.  Read what JB is really saying and move on.

 

Hmm, he is correct. Fine  furniture requires different joinery methods. Screws and nails are generally frond on in such situations. But like I said before Kreg works very well in many, many situations. And really even in furniture making if to some degree.

[Peter Boland]

I was reading the current edition of "Fine Woodworking" & to paraphrase, it said that pocket hole joinery was one of if not the best way to construct the finest wood panels in walls & ceiling. I've also built quite a few pieces of the finest wood furniture that I have ever seen using Kreg products throughout. One piece, a 48 inch "S" curve oak roll top desk has won blue ribbons in competitions with Amish made rivals. The base, top, cubby top interior (w/ its 52 draws) used over 500 pocket holes made w/ a master kit & custom cut, matching grain plugs. As it sits right now, totally finished, I'd defy you to pick out the placement of the pocket holes w/ the naked eye! This was far from my first piece, but I would only rate myself as a DIY'er w/ NO prior furniture building experience. To the ultra conservative "fine woodworker" the Kreg Jig System may not be a "panacea" in & of itself. But, to say that it is not a good substitute for fine joinery is worse than elitist; it's foolish. My comment doesn't even touch on the cost/benefit of Kreg verses "fine joinery" as far as equipment, man-hours of work, & skill level need to produce some of the best quality furniture. Obviously whoever made this original post (JB), never views the videos & picture posted on the Kreg Community site.  Are industrial diamonds used to polish the mirrors in the Hubble telescope superior to the outcomes prior to their invention? Come on JB, climb down off that high horse! But, watch that last step! It might have been built w/ something other than Kreg joinery!

[John Schaben]

Hi Peter, I think if you, and others, would    c a r e f u l l y   re read JB's post you would see that he is not condemning the use of pocket holes at all. I suspect from your post that pocket hole joinery is NOT the only joinery tool in your arsenal. All JB was saying is that there are many joinery methods that aspiring wood workers should at least become aware of  in order to choose the best method given the existing circumstances. Again, from your post, I believe that is a position that you would also support. I think what precipitated the whole thing was a flurry of questions from new users concerning some completely inappropriate applications of an otherwise excellent system.

Peter Boland said:

I was reading the current edition of "Fine Woodworking" & to paraphrase, it said that pocket hole joinery was one of if not the best way to construct the finest wood panels in walls & ceiling. I've also built quite a few pieces of the finest wood furniture that I have ever seen using Kreg products throughout. One piece, a 48 inch "S" curve oak roll top desk has won blue ribbons in competitions with Amish made rivals. The base, top, cubby top interior (w/ its 52 draws) used over 500 pocket holes made w/ a master kit & custom cut, matching grain plugs. As it sits right now, totally finished, I'd defy you to pick out the placement of the pocket holes w/ the naked eye! This was far from my first piece, but I would only rate myself as a DIY'er w/ NO prior furniture building experience. To the ultra conservative "fine woodworker" the Kreg Jig System may not be a "panacea" in & of itself. But, to say that it is not a good substitute for fine joinery is worse than elitist; it's foolish. My comment doesn't even touch on the cost/benefit of Kreg verses "fine joinery" as far as equipment, man-hours of work, & skill level need to produce some of the best quality furniture. Obviously whoever made this original post (JB), never views the videos & picture posted on the Kreg Community site.  Are industrial diamonds used to polish the mirrors in the Hubble telescope superior to the outcomes prior to their invention? Come on JB, climb down off that high horse! But, watch that last step! It might have been built w/ something other than Kreg joinery!

[duane ribron]

I agree, it seems that many here are taking the post out of contex. He is not saying that Kreg is in anyway inferior, it is simply not the only option. In fact there are many options that any inspiring woodworker should understand. I am sure that many would feel that as fun as Kreg jig might be to use, many other joinery options are also just as fun. As for streangth, yes Kreg can be strong. But not the strongiest, as far as streangth goes, nothing can beat the M&T. Other things to consider are that there are times where you would not want the streangth of a screw, such as for table tops where you might want to allow for some movment. And it is that fact that the Kreg is not the only answer. Just like dole's are not nor are M&T. There is a time and place for everything. And that is why as woodworkers we must always strive to not tie ourselves down to one way, while ignoring the other. We should try to develop our skills so when the need arises, our skills will be up to the task at hand.

John Schaben said:

Hi Peter, I think if you, and others, would    c a r e f u l l y   re read JB's post you would see that he is not condemning the use of pocket holes at all. I suspect from your post that pocket hole joinery is NOT the only joinery tool in your arsenal. All JB was saying is that there are many joinery methods that aspiring wood workers should at least become aware of  in order to choose the best method given the existing circumstances. Again, from your post, I believe that is a position that you would also support. I think what precipitated the whole thing was a flurry of questions from new users concerning some completely inappropriate applications of an otherwise excellent system.

Peter Boland said:

I was reading the current edition of "Fine Woodworking" & to paraphrase, it said that pocket hole joinery was one of if not the best way to construct the finest wood panels in walls & ceiling. I've also built quite a few pieces of the finest wood furniture that I have ever seen using Kreg products throughout. One piece, a 48 inch "S" curve oak roll top desk has won blue ribbons in competitions with Amish made rivals. The base, top, cubby top interior (w/ its 52 draws) used over 500 pocket holes made w/ a master kit & custom cut, matching grain plugs. As it sits right now, totally finished, I'd defy you to pick out the placement of the pocket holes w/ the naked eye! This was far from my first piece, but I would only rate myself as a DIY'er w/ NO prior furniture building experience. To the ultra conservative "fine woodworker" the Kreg Jig System may not be a "panacea" in & of itself. But, to say that it is not a good substitute for fine joinery is worse than elitist; it's foolish. My comment doesn't even touch on the cost/benefit of Kreg verses "fine joinery" as far as equipment, man-hours of work, & skill level need to produce some of the best quality furniture. Obviously whoever made this original post (JB), never views the videos & picture posted on the Kreg Community site.  Are industrial diamonds used to polish the mirrors in the Hubble telescope superior to the outcomes prior to their invention? Come on JB, climb down off that high horse! But, watch that last step! It might have been built w/ something other than Kreg joinery!

[Peter Boland]

As I read JB's post, it said, ".... it (sic Kreg jig) is not a good substitute for fine joinery."  It is my opinion that JB is incorrect. I have some very desirable (by others than myself) furniture to prove it.  I don't see where he is saying that pocket hole joints are part of his arsenal. He is saying that it's not part of his "fine joinery" arsenal. Again, it's my opinion that I can make a flawless piece of furniture of the finest wood available jointed by nothing but Kreg pocket holes that other noted commercial "fine furniture" builders would love to take off my hands. JB is saying that that piece would not be heirloom fine.  I simply disagree with him, & the assertion that I am taking anything out of context.

[John Schaben]

Hi Peter - I guess it's all in the interpretation. I, personally, didn't find the comments particularly offensive. On the contrary, I took them as somewhat constructive. As you know, in selecting a joinery technique there are many factors to be considered; materials, expected usage, potential loads, etc.... I believe that one needs at least some familiarity with alternative solutions to make an appropriate choice.  As far as JB's comment about pocket joints not being a substitute for fine joinery, I guess I just  dismissed that as an opinion and let it go at that then focused on the other points in his post.

Peter Boland said:

As I read JB's post, it said, ".... it (sic Kreg jig) is not a good substitute for fine joinery."  It is my opinion that JB is incorrect. I have some very desirable (by others than myself) furniture to prove it.  I don't see where he is saying that pocket hole joints are part of his arsenal. He is saying that it's not part of his "fine joinery" arsenal. Again, it's my opinion that I can make a flawless piece of furniture of the finest wood available jointed by nothing but Kreg pocket holes that other noted commercial "fine furniture" builders would love to take off my hands. JB is saying that that piece would not be heirloom fine.  I simply disagree with him, & the assertion that I am taking anything out of context.

[Frank Gardecki]

You know what a tenon is ?--------------------a oversized dowel and is a outstanding joinery but you have to buy  costly mortise and tenon tool  or do old school in which I do on small projects with a saw ,chisel and rasp file and TIME . Biscuits  I believe are  ok but setting the bicuit cutter lining up the cutter and the glue and clamps again  if you have time.

[duane ribron]

You can do M&T with a router w/table. Or if you wish your table saw can be useful. Personally I think the router table is the best and easyiest way to go. Sence many people have this, no special tools are usally needed.   

[Frank Gardecki]

duane ribron said:

You can do M&T with a router w/table. Or if you wish your table saw can be useful. Personally I think the router table is the best and easyiest way to go. Sence many people have this, no special tools are usally needed.   I have seen it on TV but forgot how to set u, the mortise you drill 3 holes and chisel them out and the tenion is done with router.

[duane ribron]

Yes, true it is possible to use a drill and chisel if you don't mind a littel sheat and tears. To be honest there are tons of ways to creat mortise and tenon joints. Part of the fun!

[Jim McGinley]

My question is has anybody ever combined pocket hole joinery using dowels for an alignment and strength supplement and glue? I am building a rollaround tool cabinet for my son for christmas. I am making twenty inch wide panels for sides and shelves using this tecnique. It sure makes it nice to spread your glue, put in the dowels, clamp it together, apply the screws then take it out of the clamps and move on. My thought is all the strength I can get is good. 

[jigman]

I don't think that there is any joint that is perfect for every job.  I probably will use the joint that is most practical and strong in my projects.  Kreg seems to fit and will fit most of my projects.  As for being strong.  I think it is strong enough for most projects.   It will also depend on the placement of the screw as to the strength.   I was shocked how strong it made my drawing table base.   I am very pleased with the strength and ease of use.