Split Wood on Face Frames

[Eddie Kirk]

I am having a issue with spliting face frames when using Kreg screws.  I am using 1x2 oak and a 1 1/4 inch fine thread screw like the chart says.  Any ideas what I am doing wrong?  I am considering going to a 1 inch screw or changing the depth.

[zencuke]

My thanks also. I didn't quite get that bit the first time. A picture is always worth... A question: Why isn't it better to go in the other direction, i.e. set the collar slightly higher so you will drill right through the end, and then clean up the exit hole before making the joint? I tried that in one experiment when i was attempting to drill pilot holes in the second (MDF) piece and it didn't seem to cause any problems.

Jay Boutwell said:

Vanessa, I'm the author of that post.  I started using the kreg jig at the start of it introduction on to the market, having one of the first jigs sold which was the K2 model.  At that time there was no build in guages and or other devices for setting the debth collar on the drill bit.  To make it easy and simple the use of a american coin the nickel was the best method I could find to set the debth collar.  I had two reasons for this as it kept the drill bit from hitting the base on the jig but also prevented the bit from exiting the hole on the piece that you were going to attach the drilled piece to.  The exiting of the screw left a small dimple at the exit and was a protrussion that prevented a tight connection of the wood.  I have mulltiple jigs now and still use this method as an assurance to proper setting of the bit.  I have about 20 years building cabinets and custom wood work as a profession and this method  of setting the bit has never failed me .  Ref  to photo.  If you do not have the type with a base on it similiar to the one below it will not apply and you will have to refer to the instruction sheet that came with the jig.  hope this answers your question.

[Thomas O Henrickson]

Reply by TomH on April  14

If you are using a impact driver for putting in screws.................Don't.  No control.

I use a milwaukee 12 volt drill/driver with the tension settings at about 4 or 5.  Works great.

The point being is to check tension settings on the drill/driver that you are using.   Start low and test on a test piece first.    Most cracks are caused by overdriving the screws.  Use 3/4" GOOD QUALITY red oak all the time with 1 1/4" screws with no problems  Be aware that cheap particle board lumber is notorious for splitting with anything. 

 

 

[Jay Boutwell]

Vanessa, above all don't let all this discussion about the splitting wood from the kreg jig posts worry or discourage you from the art of woodworking.  Like I mentioned I have been at this along time and the amount of splits that I have expereince is truly very limited compared to the actual numbers that I have driven into every type of wood you can imagine.  When I got a split I figured it was Kregs way of telling me that the split wood should not be used in the construction in the first place, as it is defective and might not be strong joint reguardless of what type fastener used.  I just set it aside and get another piece of wood and go on with my project.  I am here to tell you that Kreg Tools has developed the best method for the quickest and strongest joint possible for a butt joint.  It is more that strong enough for the project you are building.  I appreciate your reply and please know that at any time i can be of help ask.  There are a large number of members here whom have a vass amount of knowledge and talent and are willing to help. 

Jay Boutwell said:

Vanessa, I'm the author of that post.  I started using the kreg jig at the start of it introduction on to the market, having one of the first jigs sold which was the K2 model.  At that time there was no build in guages and or other devices for setting the debth collar on the drill bit.  To make it easy and simple the use of a american coin the nickel was the best method I could find to set the debth collar.  I had two reasons for this as it kept the drill bit from hitting the base on the jig but also prevented the bit from exiting the hole on the piece that you were going to attach the drilled piece to.  The exiting of the screw left a small dimple at the exit and was a protrussion that prevented a tight connection of the wood.  I have mulltiple jigs now and still use this method as an assurance to proper setting of the bit.  I have about 20 years building cabinets and custom wood work as a profession and this method  of setting the bit has never failed me .  Ref  to photo.  If you do not have the type with a base on it similiar to the one below it will not apply and you will have to refer to the instruction sheet that came with the jig.  hope this answers your question.

[Jay Boutwell]

Well it is definately American and one that is not worn as I keep one if all my kreg jib storage boxes just for this purpose.  It is worth more in the box as a jig tool than on the market.  I did check it to see if it got smaller from deflation though.  lol

Mike Kahle said:

Jay, is that an American Nickel or a Canadian?

[zencuke]

Jay,

 

You wrote:

>I am here to tell you that Kreg Tools has developed the best method for the quickest and strongest joint possible for a butt joint.

 

I can see quickest but do you really mean "strongest possible?" Do you really believe that A Kreg pocket hole with or without glue is stonger than say:

• Mortice and tenon
• Dowels
• Any of modern biscuit joiners

Is this just your opinion or can you point to independent tests?

 

-zencuke

 

 

[Vanessa Best]

Thanks Jay!
I have been wanting to get involved in woodworking since college, but am a divorced single mom, and have been slowly trying to learn to use just basic tools as I go... For christmas I bought my 9 year old daughter this kids tool bench, with a wreak saw, hammer, screw driver, and I also bought her a hand drill and a few ore things. I've slowly bought some very basic tools for myself, and recently bought a used mitre saw. I have the portable kreg jig, but am now thnkung I probably should have gotten the full sized...? I like the idea of the kreg jig, and fully believe it will prove an excellent method of creating joints, but just need to learn to really use it well. I only have to clamps at this point and cost is a majorbissue, which is why this is such a slow process ... That and having to research and learn about every little detail, such as what wood I can use for outdoor projects, and appropriate hardware, and the hardest part for me seems to be measuring and squaring things correctly. It gets a little overwhelming. So many things I want to learn and also to be able to do with my daughter... Hard though when I'm learning it all new too! You may regret your generous offer to help and receive questions, as I am likely to take you up on that, and I'm so completely new and clueless that I don't even really know all that I don't know about at this point, so don't always know which questions to ask until I'm running into problems!
Jay Boutwell said:

Vanessa, above all don't let all this discussion about the splitting wood from the kreg jig posts worry or discourage you from the art of woodworking.  Like I mentioned I have been at this along time and the amount of splits that I have expereince is truly very limited compared to the actual numbers that I have driven into every type of wood you can imagine.  When I got a split I figured it was Kregs way of telling me that the split wood should not be used in the construction in the first place, as it is defective and might not be strong joint reguardless of what type fastener used.  I just set it aside and get another piece of wood and go on with my project.  I am here to tell you that Kreg Tools has developed the best method for the quickest and strongest joint possible for a butt joint.  It is more that strong enough for the project you are building.  I appreciate your reply and please know that at any time i can be of help ask.  There are a large number of members here whom have a vass amount of knowledge and talent and are willing to help. 

Jay Boutwell said:

Vanessa, I'm the author of that post.  I started using the kreg jig at the start of it introduction on to the market, having one of the first jigs sold which was the K2 model.  At that time there was no build in guages and or other devices for setting the debth collar on the drill bit.  To make it easy and simple the use of a american coin the nickel was the best method I could find to set the debth collar.  I had two reasons for this as it kept the drill bit from hitting the base on the jig but also prevented the bit from exiting the hole on the piece that you were going to attach the drilled piece to.  The exiting of the screw left a small dimple at the exit and was a protrussion that prevented a tight connection of the wood.  I have mulltiple jigs now and still use this method as an assurance to proper setting of the bit.  I have about 20 years building cabinets and custom wood work as a profession and this method  of setting the bit has never failed me .  Ref  to photo.  If you do not have the type with a base on it similiar to the one below it will not apply and you will have to refer to the instruction sheet that came with the jig.  hope this answers your question.

[Vanessa Best]

Oh, and you said that using the kreg method will provide a strong joint for my project, but does that mean ANY project? One thing I want to build is a loft bed for my daughter...

[Gary]

Kenny,

That is called Nominal vs Actual size.  Here is a chart of wood sizes.  Nothing is actually 1" thick.

 

North American softwood dimensional lumber sizes

Nominal (in)	Actual	Nominal (in)	Actual	Nominal (in)	Actual
1 × 2	3⁄4 in × 1 1⁄2 in (19 mm × 38 mm)	2 × 2	1 1⁄2 in × 1 1⁄2 in (38 mm × 38 mm)	4 × 4	3 1⁄2 in × 3 1⁄2 in (89 mm × 89 mm)
1 × 3	3⁄4 in × 2 1⁄2 in (19 mm × 64 mm)	2 × 3	1 1⁄2 in × 2 1⁄2 in (38 mm × 64 mm)	4 × 6	3 1⁄2 in × 5 1⁄2 in (89 mm × 140 mm)
1 × 4	3⁄4 in × 3 1⁄2 in (19 mm × 89 mm)	2 × 4	1 1⁄2 in × 3 1⁄2 in (38 mm × 89 mm)	6 × 6	5 1⁄2 in × 5 1⁄2 in (140 mm × 140 mm)
1 × 6	3⁄4 in × 5 1⁄2 in (19 mm × 140 mm)	2 × 6	1 1⁄2 in × 5 1⁄2 in (38 mm × 140 mm)	8 × 8	7 1⁄4 in × 7 1⁄4 in (184 mm × 184 mm)
1 × 8	3⁄4 in × 7 1⁄4 in (19 mm × 184 mm)	2 × 8	1 1⁄2 in × 7 1⁄4 in (38 mm × 184 mm)
1 × 10	3⁄4 in × 9 1⁄4 in (19 mm × 235 mm)	2 × 10	1 1⁄2 in × 9 1⁄4 in (38 mm × 235 mm)
1 × 12	3⁄4 in × 11 1⁄4 in (19 mm × 286 mm)	2 × 12	1 1⁄2 in × 11 1⁄4 in (38 mm × 286 mm)

 

 

 

Hardwood dimensional lumber sizes

Nominal	Surfaced 1 Side (S1S)	Surfaced 2 sides (S2S)
1⁄2 in	3⁄8 in (9.5 mm)	5⁄16 in (7.9 mm)
5⁄8 in	1⁄2 in (13 mm)	7⁄16 in (11 mm)
3⁄4 in	5⁄8 in (16 mm)	9⁄16 in (14 mm)
1 in or 4⁄4 in	7⁄8 in (22 mm)	13⁄16 in (21 mm)
1 1⁄4 in or 5⁄4 in	1+1⁄8 in (29 mm)	1+1⁄16 in (27 mm)
1 1⁄2 in or 6⁄4 in	1+3⁄8 in (35 mm)	1+5⁄16 in (33 mm)
2 in or 8⁄4 in	1+13⁄16 in (46 mm)	1+3⁄4 inches (44 mm)
3 in or 12⁄4 in	2+13⁄16 in (71 mm)	2+3⁄4 in (70 mm)
4 in or 16⁄4 in	3+13⁄16 in (97 mm)	3+3⁄4 in (95 mm)

kenny from Sundre said:

Hi Eddie; Is your stock actually 1" thick? Any 1 by oak that I have been able to buy physically measures less than 1" and usually 3/4"

kenny

 

[elpasobooks]

It was suggested to me by the local wood working club NOT to use a corded drill.  The corded drills can give more torque and cause the spilting. The battery powered drill has less torque and may help avoid spilting.

[Jay Boutwell]

ZENCUE:
You know it seems like you are the argumenative type person and although myself and others have tried to be helpful to you have something to be argumentive about reguardless as to what was said in an attempt to help you.

  What this comment you just gave me is the same type I used to face in a court of law in cross examination by defense attorneys where they try to twist and turn everything said into meaning something else.  The key word here was "QUICKEST" meaning for a butt joint, it is the srongest method of making a joint in the "Quickest AMOUNT OF TIME".  It says nothing about the mortise and tennon, lap joint, bridle joint or anything else.  It says using your common sence it if far better than using duck tape, bubble gum, nails, baling wire an or any other means of a construction that can be done with a limited amount of tools and expending  the least amount of time.   The results is a strong joint and a nice appealing joint that is made using very few tools and done within a very short amount of time. 

You began this chapter in the Kreg Jig Community asking for help and advise on your splitting problems.  Before you could receive any help it was immediately Kreg Tools that were at fault basically telling eveyone that they were lying and giving false advertisement taking advantage of being not up front with their advertising methods.  myself as well as others gave you good and sound advise and you still contiue to want to be indifferent with it.  If you don't feel that it applies to your problem kick it to the curb and figure it out yourself.

 No I am not telling everyone that it is the strongest joint in the world but at the same time I give others the credit that they have enough common sense to know where or not that  their construction is strong enough for their project and its intended use. 

 Athough I would not be using mdf or mdo for face frames I have not told you what material to use based on its strength as I have given you credit to know if its strength is sufficent for its use.  I as others have tried to help you solve your splitting problems.  Even your comment to my first post, you  questioned my memory telling telling me that may I forgot my first experiences when I began using the kreg jig.  No I have not forgot the first time i bored a hole for a pocket screw.and I can tell you that I have 20 or so years of building cabinets of which most of the years has involved the use of the Kreg jig. If I was not happy with the tooling then I would not be here telling you that I am.  I'm not trying to be offensive or disrespectful to you but at the same token I do not wish to argue about my experience and or knowledge.  I gave it to you because you asked.

Jay,

 

You wrote:

>I am here to tell you that Kreg Tools has developed the best method for the quickest and strongest joint possible for a butt joint.

 

I can see quickest but do you really mean "strongest possible?" Do you really believe that A Kreg pocket hole with or without glue is stonger than say:

• Mortice and tenon
• Dowels
• Any of modern biscuit joiners

Is this just your opinion or can you point to independent tests?

 

-zencuke

 

 

[Vanessa Best]

And Jay, just so you kmow, my question is without any antagonistic intent... I am genuine:)... And I do not assume to understand enough to think that anything related to this venture will be common sense for me:) so the door is wide open for your input and advice as well as others:). Thank you again, and thank you Mike for friending me and for your tips on help I might find here. It is easy to feel intimidated being a woman without previous experience or skills related to woodworking or even much around tools or mechanical issues at all. I love to learn though, and have learned that when attempting any new skill, there are often many "tricks of the trade" that can make a world of difference , and much can be learned from others with experience who are willing to offer up what has worked for them.
I was a little nervous to post on here, not knowing anything, but it has been a very pleasant surprise to receive such kindness and offers of help and support! I might actually be able to make some progress on this item of my " life list" :)!! Thank you everyone, and thank you in advance for your patience!

[Jay Boutwell]

Not a problem Vanessa, I'm always glad to help anyone who asks and if you ask me a question I will give you my honest opinion.  However when someone tries to twist my wording around to argue with me then I am no longer interested in helping them.  I believe people have a right to their own opinions and at the same time I believed that they also have common sense and that I or no one else should question that.  Everyone  knows that they would not build the Brooklyn Bridge with kreg screws or for that matter with most common woodworking joints either.   That applies to woodworking also.

 In woodworking there many types of joints of which all have their place in different projects.  This is depending on  its application, some are over kill for the project at hand.  Things like bed frames, heavy supporting pieces in large and heavy furniture that require resistance to heavy amount of load and or heavy use including abuse from moving and general useage, I would not use just pocket screws.   I would not use a butt joint either unless I could reinforce it with a mechanical fasterner like a lag screw or through bolt.  Here again it is something where common sense fits into  the planning of it too.  There are the design aspects also, where  as if you are attempting to create something of which benifits by jointery and if exposing the jointery joints is of a desire then that is the method of approach to go.  Also bear in mind that there is the locations in even this form of construction where the kreg pocket system is the quickest method still giving you a strong joint with eye appeal with a simple butt joint. 

I wrote you the post about not getting discouraged because it seems like often thoes just beginning get discouraged by the posts making things un-necessary complicated.  I certainly wish that you are afforded the opportunity to excell in woodworking and not become confussed and discouraged.  Like I said there is a great number on here that have a vass amount of talent and knowledge that have been at the game for a long time.  The great thing about this community is that most are more than willing to share information to help anyone whom asks.  We are fortunated to have several ladies on here whom also have excellent knowledge and skill and in fact I have learned much from reading and viewing their projects.  I would like nothing more than to see you added to this number.  You have a Kreg Tool and the best tool for making complicated things an easy method with great results.   I believe in all whom try and thoes whom are willing to learn.  That being said welcome aboard to the group.  I am looking forward to seeing many fine projects that you build and posting.

Vanessa Best said:

And Jay, just so you kmow, my question is without any antagonistic intent... I am genuine:)... And I do not assume to understand enough to think that anything related to this venture will be common sense for me:) so the door is wide open for your input and advice as well as others:). Thank you again, and thank you Mike for friending me and for your tips on help I might find here. It is easy to feel intimidated being a woman without previous experience or skills related to woodworking or even much around tools or mechanical issues at all. I love to learn though, and have learned that when attempting any new skill, there are often many "tricks of the trade" that can make a world of difference , and much can be learned from others with experience who are willing to offer up what has worked for them.
I was a little nervous to post on here, not knowing anything, but it has been a very pleasant surprise to receive such kindness and offers of help and support! I might actually be able to make some progress on this item of my " life list" :)!! Thank you everyone, and thank you in advance for your patience!