where are the KPHs?

[Alien]

iI have been reading this site for a few months now and its a great place for Kreg tool fans to gather and share ideas and projects and info about their Kreg tool experiences. It's great to see finished projects that where built with Kreg tools and how they applied the tool to their particular project. Its a wood working forum, we all get that, but what i don't get is seeing a gazillion pics of projects that don't even use a single KPH tool let alone a Kreg tool in there process of building their project. Maybe there should be separate photo section for none Kreg tool built projects? call me crazy but it feels like people are posting their projects just for show and tell and bragging rights rather then contributing to the forum, i mean after all it does say "Kreg jig owners community" at the top of every page does it not?

Thats my 2 cents, so if i offended anyone i apologize in advance and if i am totally off base then the forum moderator can feel free to delete this post. I just feel that if your gonna have a forum on a particular subject then you don't mind seeing a few random pics of something related, but posting everything you have on your hard drive and your digital camera seems a tad extreme.

[Anthony Lanting]

I agree with ADI to a point- I am guilty as charged with posting a picture of a non-Kreg project, but as a responce to one that was. I have spent time looking at a project picture wondering "Where's the Kreg?" only to find out it wasn't used. Most software packages allow multiple albums, maybe we could get another one here?

[KregRep]

Very interesting thread. First off, thanks for creating it, "Alien Digital Ink". I think it's an important issue for the community to at least discuss! First of all, let me explain the purpose of this community website for the record... as it says on the homepage: "A friendly social community for Kreg Jig owners to share stories, project ideas, tips, and tricks for using their Kreg Jig." So far, I think everyone agrees that the site has been a huge success and has turned into a great resource for Kreg Jig owners everywhere! We're very proud of what the site has become only a few months after starting it, and very appreciative to all members that have participated and told their unique Kreg Story for everyone else to learn from... that's really what it's all about. I think that wherever this thread ends up going... this is the most important thing to remember.

Now, that being said... let me give you my thoughts and concerns regarding the issue at hand.
1) We have no interest in 'ruling' this community with an iron fist. Unless things change dramatically for the worse, we wont' be deleting projects simply because they were not built with a Kreg product or because it does not fit a extremely narrow view of 'relevant to the community'. We really want members to feel like this is an open community where they can share and discuss anything they choose.
2) Our primary hope for this site was that it would INSPIRE new Kreg Jig owners to start building. To provide them with project ideas, helpful tips, and advice directly from more experienced Kreg Jig owners. Because of this, obviously the most effective/interesting/valuable projects will be those built with a Kreg Jig which has photos showing how exactly it was built.
3) The concern that many non-Kreg projects are being posted is a real valid one. From our perspective, it is ok that there are projects here that aren't built with the Kreg Jig, (they're still very inspirational/educational) but it would be beneficial if these projects were described as such. This is a somewhat 'exclusive' community as it's for individuals who own a Kreg Jig, and as the thread starter and Anthony mentioned, it's slightly confusing for some when you're trying to figure out how something was built with Pocket-Holes, when there are no photos of the 'business side' of the project, and you end up finding out that it wasn't actually even built with a Kreg Jig! This can be frustrating.
4) The forums might be a good example of the balance we should shoot for... there are something like 6 or 7 sections devoted to the Kreg Jig, and a couple devoted to 'Miscellaneous' or 'General Woodworking'. These are essential parts of the site, but are balanced accordingly.


So, what's the best way to move forward?
1) I think we can all agree that it would be great if members posting projects could make it a bigger effort to show post photos of the underside ('business side') of their projects so that other members can learn from how the project was built and assembled.
2) I think we can all also probably agree that it would be best if the vast majority of the projects posted were in fact built with a Kreg Jig to limit any confusion to less-experienced members. As for the projects not built with the Kreg Jig, it would be great if this fact could at least be addressed by the poster so that excess confusion can be mitigated.
3) How does this happen? We will not be 'forcing' this to happen, obviously. My hope would be that it happens more organically... I think if the most involved and frequent visitors of this community (that's probably YOU if you've read this far already) would be willing to try and make this the 'public norm' by doing so in their own posts, by commenting and asking questions of other members (as I did in this instance) accordingly, by starting threads like this, etc. It would quickly become the 'new norm'. What we need is a few leaders to step up and ask members posting projects to share more photos of the underside, to specify how it was built, etc. I think with your help, we can make this community more useful, more user friendly, and full of more relevant content... because that's what it's all about! Being a great resource for all types of Kreg Jig owners or future owners!

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts on this topic! I'd love to hear more of your opinions... as you're the ones who use the site on a daily basis. How do you think the 'balance' of the content has been so far on the Kreg Jig Owners' Community? Is it confusing when you can't figure out how a project was built? Are there too many non-Kreg Jig projects... or not enough? Are the steps I laid out above logical? Do you agree with the course of action?

Thanks to everyone for discussing this issue! Just more evidence that we've got some of the best community members out there!

Until next time, good luck and good woodworking!
-KregRep

[Joe Luberto]

I personally agree with Alien on this one.More projects should be posted that are made with the Kreg Jig.Any project that has not been made using the KPH, should state which joinery was used and mabey the reason for doing so, as apose to the KPH.Did they do so, for not knowing how to convert the plans to KPH as I do? And so have not built much at all for this.My main reason for not doing much is my cronic back & neck pain,but that's another issue.Mabey peole can explain how,if,and why they chose to do their projects without the KPH system.I think most people are still hesitant that this new joinery would not hold up and therefore go back to the old joinery they know and trust.One question is to those who don't really thrust the KPH is ,were you not weary of the joint you used when you first built your project,meaning joints like M&T or what not? Any way keep up the good work here guys & gals.

[Kerry Drake]

I think users should at the very least clearly state if their projects involve the Kreg Jig or not. Better yet, a good practice would be to explicitly say HOW you've used Kreg products on their project. This brings to mind another question though... this is the Kreg JIG Owners Community; what about other Kreg tools that are not "jigs".

Maybe its time to change to Community to the Kreg Tools Owners Community...?

I've set up an account over at the Lumber Jocks site, and am posting over there stuff I do that is not Kreg Related in some way.

I think a section set aside for non-kreg projects here would be fine, I'm just not sure how you would go about setting that up with NING.

[Don Clark]

Since I am new to woodworking, I like seeing projects of all kinds to help me learn and give ideas. That said, what would be the most helpful to me would be to have projects that don't use PHJ labeled as such and list what type of joinery was used and why. I am sure PHJ is not the ideal joining method for all situations and I want to learn why. If you used dovetails, M&T, etc because of asthetics that is fine, dovetails and box joints have a certain look to them that is appealing. If you weren't sure how exactly to implement a PHJ in a specific project, that is fine as well...toss that in there, maybe someone has had a similar situation and can teach us all something.

I like the idea of a non-Kreg project discussion folder.

Just because we all own a Kreg doesn't mean we use it all the time. It doesn't make that 'non-Kreg time' any less valuable and important.

[Larry Barnett]

I agree ;seeing pictures of how using pocket hole screws in different projects gives me ideals that I wouldn't have thought of. If this is a woodworking forum, pictures of shops and pojects that don't have pocket hole joinery should be in a different album or area. I know I've posted pictures of finished projects and didn't show how or where I used the pocket hole joints or posted pictures of projects that I built before I bought the Kreg jigs. thinking of all the different places I could have used it to make it stronger and hiding the screw heads. Let us know where to post non pockethole projects. Most projects can use pockethole joinery but there are few that you can't. But let us know also if you want all the non pocket hole projects removed from the forum that can be done also. Thanks for your input.

[Dennis Fletcher]

I agree. I posted a fence that I used a Kreg jig on, unfortunately, it was a while ago and I never took pictures of the actual pocket holes, but I did try to go back and explain where and how they were used. I think that was important, so others could get an idea of ways they can use their jigs.

[Steve McCullough]

I agree with Kerry Drake and I too have an account with "Lumber Jocks". Maybe I'm just nieve (sp) but I really thought most of the projects posted on here were in fact KPH projects. I agree that the KPH can't be used for everything, but it sure can be used for a lot. I look on Lumber Jocks and flip through the projects and there are some real artists and craftsman woodworkers on there and I get ideas from their work. Sometimes I look at those projects and start figuring out how I could do something similar using the KPH system. Sometimes I look at the Kreg pics and wonder how they did it because the pics I've seen on here are just as good as the ones on the other site and the talent is obviously just as good also.
Maybe in order to post on here, you have to submit two pictures. One of the working side, the other of the finished product.

[Larry Barnett]

Being a Kreg jig community member just looking at non KPH projects gets me thinking how I can apply KPH joinery to it.

Steve McCullough said:

I agree with Kerry Drake and I too have an account with "Lumber Jocks". Maybe I'm just nieve (sp) but I really thought most of the projects posted on here were in fact KPH projects. I agree that the KPH can't be used for everything, but it sure can be used for a lot. I look on Lumber Jocks and flip through the projects and there are some real artists and craftsman woodworkers on there and I get ideas from their work. Sometimes I look at those projects and start figuring out how I could do something similar using the KPH system. Sometimes I look at the Kreg pics and wonder how they did it because the pics I've seen on here are just as good as the ones on the other site and the talent is obviously just as good also.
Maybe in order to post on here, you have to submit two pictures. One of the working side, the other of the finished product.

[DAVID CZUPRYN]

Don Clark"s comment is right on the money !!! I think things are fine the way they are.I own the first made Kreg Jig,and it serves its purpose. That being said,my shop does NOT revolve around this tool !! This tool,like any other tool,compliments the shop. BUT,IT'S NOT THE ENTIRE SHOP. It"s not the only method of joinery.Don"t get me wrong,I utilize the tool a lot more now,not just for face frames,as originally intended. I subscribe to some trade magazines. Making a magazine that appeals to all of the readers,all of the time is an impossable task.Not everyone will have the same intrests on all subjects,all of the time.The same can be said about this site.Like a trade magazine,take from it what you will,what appeals to you,what you want to see and learn.Limiting yourself to one thing,limits you and your ability to perform.The more things you see,the more ideas you get,the broader your vision becomes.The only one who can limit me,is me.I prefer the "big picture". What Kreg does with their site,is their business,not mine.If you only study one subject,and one subject only,that"s the only thing you will ever know. Just my "2 cents" worth Dave

[Kevin]

I've been coming to this site for several months now myself.
I'm not sure if what we are discussing here is relevant or even an issue. There is a key word in the title of this forum. It is community. Granted, this community came together originally more than likely because we all bought one Kreg Jig or another. However, we all like to build stuff. Not everything we build even requires a joint...what if we're trying to emphasize to somebody a carving, or maybe a turning? When you go to a business meeting, sure - there's usually a schedule of items to be discussed...but pretty much every time I've ever been forced into something like that the discussion goes to other things. They're called tangents. Some of us refer to them as rabbit trails. Maybe that's what some of us are doing. But if you think about it - there's more to this than just a bunch of showoffs trying to exhibit their wares. I honestly think we have folks showing up here who are proud of the things they've built and they feel an honestly friendly atmosphere here on this site. I don't belong to any other forums. This is the first time I've ever been a part of anything like this. I can't tell you guys how inspiring the work is I see on here. I get ideas for things that I've wondered forever how to do. Ok - so sometimes non-pocket hole projects get mixed in. So what? Most of us can recognize that. Maybe in a lot of these cases you have someone brand new at woodworking and what we're seeing is some of their first stuff. Big deal. Talk to them. Chat with them. Bring up the pocket hole jig or other Kreg tools that you think might help them with future projects. Guys - my wife divorced me last year. Took my little boys from me. I live out in the middle of nowhere and have zero social life. Coming to this site has been inspiring and a breath of fresh air. Everybody on here is as friendly as they can be and most anybody that offers suggestions or advice do so with the best of intentions. I have been able to build the coolest things that I never would have figured out how to do without my Kreg Jig.
I think I'm rambling a bit. Forgive me. I doubt I've answered any questions....if there was one. You know, it it's that big a deal KregRep - lay down some generic "soft" rules for where to post certain things. But think about something guys - we have everybody from 8 years olds to 80 something years olds coming here. This site has really grown and there's a lot of information here. Keep that in mind. Unless the forum were scrapped and redesigned it would be tough to reign it in that tightly. I've done a couple of these "ning" sites...they have a mind of their own. That's what makes them what they are. It's what gives them their personality. Even starting over fresh, it would be tough to control. KregRep - you have the power to delete anything you see fit whenever you want to. Have you really ever had any complaints where folks asked you to delete stuff? Come on folks. Have fun with this.
I think so far the answer is pretty simple. Captions on the pictures. Comments. Visually show some of the process when you can. Maybe set up a few different specificly titled photo albums that either WE maneuver our pictures into, or KregRep can do that (based on comments/captions/or other details about the projects) I know I've actually posted some things I did on here with a pocket hole jig I got YEARS ago before I could even afford a Kreg. Again - this is a community. We have the capability of chatting or emailing back and forth within this site. If you need more information about something - ask somebody. I'm sure they'd be more than thrilled to talk about their work and how they accomplished it.
Forgive me if I got nowhere near the actual topic. Just don't focus like I used to.

....stepping down from the soapbox.
have a good day.

[Kim C]

I don't feel one way or the other about what other people post. I enjoy looking at projects and they are inspiring. Aren't all pictures bragging? From what I have seen, the woodworkers on this community have a right to be proud. I do appreciate however, when a builder specifies how in the project pocket hole joinery was used... but most of the time it is obvious.

As far as for my pictures.. I haven't posted any pre-kreg projects because they are waaaaay below the level of work I have accomplished with the Kreg Jig. Most haven't lasted or have that "homemade look"... quite honestly, the Kreg Jig has made all my previous projects look like crap in comparison! LOL