Not a panacea

[JB]

As wonderful as the Kreg jig is, it is simply not a good substitute for fine joinery! Look up joinery tests in Fine Woodworking, would you rather build an heirloom piece of furniture with tried and true solid wood tenons or butt joints and screws?

[Susan]

I'm in my 60's and my husband is 78.  Don't think much of anything we put together at this point needs to last a century.  Maybe not even a decade...  We'll just be happy that we can get done what we need to from time to time.  (Just in case someone could use a bit of comic relief, here.)

[Adam Adolph]

I mean JB not BJ.

Adam Adolph said:

I am a hobby woodworker and really don't have money to buy all the "fancy" tools that some people do.  I do not own a drill press or a table saw.  I do own a power miter box (or chop saw).  I also own a plethora of cordless Dewalt tools in both 12v max and 18v.  I build what I need the easiest way I can because I also do not have the room for all the big bulky fancy woodworking tools.  I have built a set of draws for my rental houses kitchen cabinets using my kreg jig and they are almost stronger than the 50+ year old cabinets and they are definitely stronger than the old drawers.

 

It is arrogant asses like you that make newbies to the hobby like me want to sell the tools that I do own and give up before I can get a workshop and all the proper tools purchased.  While you may have been doing this longer than I've been alive you probably didn't start out using dovetails and all those multiple fancy pants joints either.  I know from watching "New Yankee" that it takes time and practice to learn these joints. I also know that it takes the proper tools that some of us do not have.

 

My only question for you BJ is:  unless the joint is obvious like dovetail or dowel how can you tell just by looking at it it isn't a "fancy, quality" joint?  I mean if I used mortise and tendon joints, and you looked at it from the front or side would you know that is what it is or would you assume that it was pocket screws?  Also, I can plug the holes and put a finish on the project making it look nice and harder to tell what I used for joinery.

[JB]

I never said it shouldn't be used for cabinets, that should be it's primary use. Before Kreg a lot of large cabinet shops had their own jigs for making this joint. But do you use it on your doors also? A face frame put together with pocket screws is also nailed and or glued to the cabinet.

Adam Adolph said:

Amen!  I have used my kreg to build cabinets and I feel that it is just as strong as any other.

Jay Boutwell said:

I have to absolutely agree with Ray and Geoff and their comments about the pocket screw technology. When it comes to the pocket screw system that Kreg Tools has developed, there is no system faster or as good.  They are by far better than nails and more accurate than most doweling systems. 

True there are other types of jointry of which have their place in woodworking.  Those of us whom have had to find and use the fastest method of doing a satisfactory job in order to survive certainly appreciate Kreg Tools for the developement of the Kreg pocket screw.  I base this on my own experience of over 20 years building cabinets and furniture.  I started using the kreg jig when they were a young company and had just started making the jigs.  I have one of the very first on the market.  When I first started building cabinets Kreg Jig had not yet been developed and I used the datto, glue, and nail system.  At that time that was the fastest and most secure wood joint to make in cabinetary.  Then the pocket screw system was introduced and I began using it.  I have countless numbers of cabinets strung all over the Pacific Northwest of which have gave the owners good service and still in good repair and still giving the same service as the day I installed them.  Some of these have with stood countless door slambing and rough use by children and adults of whom really do not use the apporiate care of furniture, and still they and hanging there right on the wall where I put them.

What I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with a butt joint held together with properly applied pocket screws.  In fact there is nothing wrong with a butt joint that has no glue in it either.  When the pocket screw was first introduced by Kreg Tool company there was independent labratory tests done comparing the pocket screw and the dowel.  The screw proved to be stronger of the two.

Other joints?   I'm familiar with all the mortise tendon joints. dattoes and dowel joints biscuits and splines, tongue and grove, bridle joints, lap joints that are imaginable.  I have used them all and I have even gone as far as using "fox wedge joints" .   I have and still frequently use them on special appliations.  But building the normal cabinet I resort to the tight fitting joints, pocket screws and glue.  They work just fine. 

I can just see myself or any other cabinet builder trying to compete  for a living using a joint other than those made by a pocket screw joint.  We would be broke on the first cabinet job.  The pocket screw is just like using a steel bolt , you just don't see the end with the nut on it.

Kreg Tool has been good to all of us developing and providing a method where the occassional wood worker can make a decent fitting and functioning wood joint and can do this with out a large investment in specialized equiptment.  From seeing all the projects on this community it is very evident that is the case.  That is my case and i'm here to prove it.  

[JB]

Everyone please read in the April Popular Woodworking Christopher Schwarz's opening column on page 6, "Why Furniture Stores Make Me Ill" and you will understand where I'm coming from.  (I guess Chris is another arrogant ass.)

 

Adam Adolph said:

I mean JB not BJ.

Adam Adolph said:

I am a hobby woodworker and really don't have money to buy all the "fancy" tools that some people do.  I do not own a drill press or a table saw.  I do own a power miter box (or chop saw).  I also own a plethora of cordless Dewalt tools in both 12v max and 18v.  I build what I need the easiest way I can because I also do not have the room for all the big bulky fancy woodworking tools.  I have built a set of draws for my rental houses kitchen cabinets using my kreg jig and they are almost stronger than the 50+ year old cabinets and they are definitely stronger than the old drawers.

 

It is arrogant asses like you that make newbies to the hobby like me want to sell the tools that I do own and give up before I can get a workshop and all the proper tools purchased.  While you may have been doing this longer than I've been alive you probably didn't start out using dovetails and all those multiple fancy pants joints either.  I know from watching "New Yankee" that it takes time and practice to learn these joints. I also know that it takes the proper tools that some of us do not have.

 

My only question for you BJ is:  unless the joint is obvious like dovetail or dowel how can you tell just by looking at it it isn't a "fancy, quality" joint?  I mean if I used mortise and tendon joints, and you looked at it from the front or side would you know that is what it is or would you assume that it was pocket screws?  Also, I can plug the holes and put a finish on the project making it look nice and harder to tell what I used for joinery.

[Ralph Sarc]

Through the years I’ve tried several forms of joinery such as biscuits and clue using my Porter Cable biscuit tool, dovetails with my dovetail jig, staples, pocket screws, clamps, fastener and the list goes on! I find my Kreg Jig to be the perfect answer to certain projects. It quick and simple to use.

[Bob Farmer]

I've seen several reviews of joint strength over the years, some where pocket holes come out on top (even beating M&T, and some where they end up middle of the pack, but here's the real point that JB won't admit to you.... it doesn't matter.  In each of these tests the pocket-hole joints end up supporting HUNDREDS of pounds for just one joint, not two joints, not three or four, or a whole panel joint... what project exactly are you EVER going to have just one pocket hole joint holding something together?  Never.  Strength is something that's essentially pointless to criticize pocket holes about.  If you want to get into the flexibility of the technique for various situations, various joints, various projects, etc. fine, but criticizing the strength is stupid because there will almost NEVER be a situation where your projects are exposed to that kind of force.

 

Bottom line, a complete NEWB, someone completely new to woodworking can successfully create a pocket hole joint in about 2 minutes while the most talented experienced woodworkers will take a half hour to put together a M&T joint.  Maybe it'll only take them 5 minutes to build it, but they'll have to wait another half hour while the glue dries.  Well, that might appeal to you, but not me.  I glue it, screw it, and move on to the next joint.  I can have my entire bookcase assembled while you're still waiting for your face-frame to dry.

 

pocket holes are more affordable, faster, easier, more fun, and make woodworking appeal to a much wider variety of people.  God forbid our small little hobby should grow in popularity!!

[steve kidd]

yes jb, i have made doors with pocket screws after i made several with mortise and tenion. all the doors are still holding together. the pocket screwed one gets a lot of use, because of where the door is in the kitchen. i also use the pocket screws to attach my face frames to the cabinet sides. yes the same cabinets i commented about earlyer. all the ones on my page are done that way. keep trying to bad mouth the kreg system, try another site and you might get some support for your way of thinking.

JB said:

I never said it shouldn't be used for cabinets, that should be it's primary use. Before Kreg a lot of large cabinet shops had their own jigs for making this joint. But do you use it on your doors also? A face frame put together with pocket screws is also nailed and or glued to the cabinet.

Adam Adolph said:

Amen!  I have used my kreg to build cabinets and I feel that it is just as strong as any other.

Jay Boutwell said:

I have to absolutely agree with Ray and Geoff and their comments about the pocket screw technology. When it comes to the pocket screw system that Kreg Tools has developed, there is no system faster or as good.  They are by far better than nails and more accurate than most doweling systems. 

True there are other types of jointry of which have their place in woodworking.  Those of us whom have had to find and use the fastest method of doing a satisfactory job in order to survive certainly appreciate Kreg Tools for the developement of the Kreg pocket screw.  I base this on my own experience of over 20 years building cabinets and furniture.  I started using the kreg jig when they were a young company and had just started making the jigs.  I have one of the very first on the market.  When I first started building cabinets Kreg Jig had not yet been developed and I used the datto, glue, and nail system.  At that time that was the fastest and most secure wood joint to make in cabinetary.  Then the pocket screw system was introduced and I began using it.  I have countless numbers of cabinets strung all over the Pacific Northwest of which have gave the owners good service and still in good repair and still giving the same service as the day I installed them.  Some of these have with stood countless door slambing and rough use by children and adults of whom really do not use the apporiate care of furniture, and still they and hanging there right on the wall where I put them.

What I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with a butt joint held together with properly applied pocket screws.  In fact there is nothing wrong with a butt joint that has no glue in it either.  When the pocket screw was first introduced by Kreg Tool company there was independent labratory tests done comparing the pocket screw and the dowel.  The screw proved to be stronger of the two.

Other joints?   I'm familiar with all the mortise tendon joints. dattoes and dowel joints biscuits and splines, tongue and grove, bridle joints, lap joints that are imaginable.  I have used them all and I have even gone as far as using "fox wedge joints" .   I have and still frequently use them on special appliations.  But building the normal cabinet I resort to the tight fitting joints, pocket screws and glue.  They work just fine. 

I can just see myself or any other cabinet builder trying to compete  for a living using a joint other than those made by a pocket screw joint.  We would be broke on the first cabinet job.  The pocket screw is just like using a steel bolt , you just don't see the end with the nut on it.

Kreg Tool has been good to all of us developing and providing a method where the occassional wood worker can make a decent fitting and functioning wood joint and can do this with out a large investment in specialized equiptment.  From seeing all the projects on this community it is very evident that is the case.  That is my case and i'm here to prove it.  

[Jay Boutwell]

JB

It is not the facts of a joint vs joint being the stronger that is the root of the problem in this discussion.  It is  the demeanor in which you arrived upon the scene.  You made insulting remarks towards us whom use the kreg jig and it's technology with the innuendos of us not being smart that we did not know any better.   You ignored the fact that some of us have told you that we use your "Prized Mortise and Tenon" joint and have explained that it is used  when it is needed.  You have been told that there is places in woodworking where different joints are needed and used and yet you go off on some  dialogue inferring that we need to be making heirloom quality  "once we master the complicated kreg jig " and start making better joints.  You said that is "satire" . Why do you feel that this satire?  It seems to me that it is totally uncalled for especially since you opened the discussion in an confronting manner.  Maybe you should practice what you preach. 

 

Your line: In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities in the expert's mind there are few." 

I ask you, are you the expert?   What I have seen is: "read this and read that in the woodworkers magazines.  Why are they the chosen experts?

 

You made reference of being  "surprised at how many were using the pocket screw wrong."  throwing out big words like "panacea" Yet I am not of aware of anyone in the kreg jig community using the jig and pocket screws to build something to park "Billy Bob's buick" on but, merely using the pocket screw technology to enjoy building things that many themselves did not think they could.  Others because they do not have the equiptment to do your "panacea joint" and use the pocket screw because it is better that nail it with nails

 

I take offense to you using your so called " panacea knowledge" and bashing the owners and users of the kreg jig as well as using the web site, of which you are a guest of, to slam and bash their customers and product.  You even resorted to making  reference to them being liars. (Refer back to the beginning when I wrote a portion of a statement about the independent tests being done showing that the kreg jig screw was stronger than the mortise and tennon joint)  Your comment back was "that was a statement made by Rockler."  I corrected you telling you that  it was made by Kreg Tools and repeated by Rockler and many more.

 

Your reply to this was:

 "Another thing to remember Jay is that all sales and marketing depts are made up of liars, they have to lie and stretch the truth and spin their products to meet their sales goals and quotas. I don't care what it is, that is the truth behind 90% of all the feel good ads."  

 

That statement says that  because they KREG TOOLS are the ones whom made the statement that they are "liars".  So I guess that  you think they are 90 percent liars.

 

 I find this disrespectfully to Kreg Tools.  Maybe you should contact Kreg Tools and tell them that they are "liars".

It is also disrespectful to the ones out there whom are in the sales and marketing industries as well.

 

You telling me, to remember this indicates to me, that you must think I'm not smart enough to figure out my own thinking.  I spent the biggest part of my life chasing liars, thieves and BS flingers to afford me the knowledge to know the difference.  I spent another 20 yrs in the woodworking industry giving me  knowledge also

 

My personal thinking of Kreg Tools is very high.  They have gone along ways towards helping the woodworker's world, opening up opportunities for not only the beginner but to the professional as well. They have done this in a courteous and professional way. 

 

If you think you are teaching anyone anything with type of attitude, let me tell you,you have taught me one thing, and that is that you are pretty good at pulling the manure spreader .   At this point in time I could care less about your joint knowing that everyone out here is smart enough to build something using common sense and using the joint that is correct for the occasion.

What I do care about is the fact that you are agitating people whom I have the highest respect for.  I respect their opinions and methods of work.  Although I have as much and maybe more experience than you, I still learn something from each and everyone of these fine  woodworking souls, and for this I am very fortunate and thankful.  I know that they are dedicated to the skill and at any time someone offends one of them it really upsets me.  Maybe I could respect yours as well should you park your manure wagon and attempt to teach your knowledge in a constructive manner.  Maybe the Kreg Jig community should band together and judge your work. 

[steve kidd]

Jay, i totally agree with your last comment. My answer to jb will be to no longer comment on this discussion. like you said he disrespects the site and members of this site. i dont want to be mean and disrespecting to jb as a person so i will no longer visit his discussion and i think all the members should join with me and stop fueling his ego. please join me in boycotting jb. sincerely steve kidd

[Jay Boutwell]

I am in total agreement with Steve.  I am in favor of ignoring any further attempts to converse with jb in any of his comments where it be this or any other topic.  I see nothing anyone  can do except be agitated, and this in not my nature or my intent on the site.   Respectfully Jay boutwell

[Adam Adolph]

Steve and Jay, I have to agree with both of you.  I appreciate it when a fellow woodworker is willing to stand up for the rest of us.

 

JB, My brother-in-law and a good friend of his and my wifes who happens to be an Industrial Arts teacher at a local High School have built some very nice furniture together that is not only nice to look at but also holds up very well.  I also know several PROFESSIONALS (cabinet makers, carpenters, Industrial Arts instructors, ect) that use these jigs and love them.  In my professional opinion it is YOU that does not know how to use the jig properly. 

[justin waldron]

I always post photos of the things that I make, whether they turned out good or bad.  JB, when are you going to post some photos on your page?