Not a panacea

[JB]

As wonderful as the Kreg jig is, it is simply not a good substitute for fine joinery! Look up joinery tests in Fine Woodworking, would you rather build an heirloom piece of furniture with tried and true solid wood tenons or butt joints and screws?

[Jay Boutwell]

"A independent lab completed testing a few years back that showed that a pocket hole joint failed at 707 pounds when subjected to a shear load while a mortise and tenon joint failed at 453 pounds (approximately 35% stronger). Pocket hole joints are tremendously strong for a couple of reasons. 1. The use of a mechanical fastener (screw) is significantly stronger than the material around it (wood), and 2. The amount of direct clamping force placed on the joint by driving the screw combined with today's glue technology makes for a sensationally strong bond."

 

This is a quote of a statement about the kreg pocket screw vs the mortise and tenon joint.  In case anyone out there is doubting.  I recall this statement made several years ago and to my knowledge it has not been disputed or proven wrong.  So all you gals and guys out there, keep a drilling them screws.

[Timothy Sluder]

JB, I take it when you talk fine joinery, you mean 100% handmade with no power tools at all. Because anything made with power tools are the choice of the maker and what they want as an result of their work. Let's see, we had stone age, bronze age and iron age. I bet the stoners did not like it when the bronzers came along and the same when the ironers showed up. (ha-ha) Look at all the changes we have made in the last 100 years and yes I like to do hands on woodworking but that is my choice. Here is a link ( http://svtplay.se/v/1371063 ) of some Swedish woodworkers from 1923, the first part shows a woodworker making a pair of wood clogs, part two is a spoon being carved that looks like was molded and the last part shows a chair being made with no metal fasteners. All items are made with hand tools and wood that they cut down. How many of us could give up our power tools and lumber yards? It's your choice, enjoy.

[Sonny Bride]

In a world where people don't mind paying for the time it takes to build a product using fine joinery and are also willing to pay to have that product shipped assembled you are probably right, tried and true solid wood tenons are better. However, in today's world where most people are used to paying less, I am still able to make an excellent living using Kreg pocket-screw joinery which I would not be able to do using tenons.

[JB]

Boy did I open up a can of worms! Folks, all I'm saying is after you 'master' the complicated Kreg butt joint (that's satire folks) move on to some better craftsmanship when you start making better stuff. Don't rely solely on a joint that is only meant for face frames and utility stuff.

Fine joinery done by craftsmen who also live of their handiwork is not done entirely by hand. They also have to make their joints as quickly as possible. So of course I use power tools! A 'handmade' tenon is not that difficult to make, all you need is a drill press, some forstner bits, a few chisels, a table saw or band saw and a little practice. I can make one almost as fast as it takes to set up the Kreg jig. Don't be afraid to progress on to better joinery.

And to Jay Boutwell, that test is from Rockler's web site, they said it was from independent testing but they never give any references to the actual test. Gee, think they just want to make more money selling the Kreg jig? And it WAS refudiated by two different tests-

Woodworking Joints Torture Test - Wood Magazine Nov 2006

Are pocket screws stronger than dowels? Which of the woodworking joints give the most strength? Do screw add any strength to a joint?
For the "Wood Joint Torture Test" in WOOD Magazine issue #173, they created and then destroyed more than 100 joints.

Wood Magazine Shear test:
Mortise & Tenon Joint took 1,005 lbs/force - over double to triple the force to break compared to other joints.

Wood Magazine Pull Apart test:
Biscuit miter joint 220 lbs/force; Dado 559 lbs/force - screws did not help.
For a Mortise & Tenon Joint, the wood failed but not the joint. It took 4,733 lbs/force nearly 2½ tons to pull apart.

 

For more information on Woodworking Joints, including pictures and the video by WOOD Magazine showing the results of these tests, please visit http://www.provenwoodworking.com/woodworking-joints.html

Copyright 2009 – Jim McCleary of provenwoodworking.com.

Jim is a woodworker with over 37 years of experience. He helps many woodworkers increase their skills with techniques, tips, plans, and jigs. Helping woodworkers is Jim’s expertise. Visit his specialty site at http://www.provenwoodworking.com

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Jim_McCleary
http://EzineArticles.com/?Woodworking-Joints—Which-Ones-Should-You-...

 Clearly, this test shows that the Mortise & Tenon joint is superior to other joints.

 

And here is a link to the Fine Woodworking article 

http://www.finewoodworking.com/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=31926

And what they said about pocket screw joints which I whole heartedly agree with!:

".... the butt joint isn’t suitable for furniture because the small glue surface depends on
end grain, making it very susceptible to seasonal stresses. Pocket
screws increased the load capacity enough to make this joint a
good option for situations where the interior of the frame is hidden."

However their shear tests showed a traditional mortise and tenon took 1,444 lbs of force before failure vs. 698 for a butt joint with pocket screws.

Not every application demands great strength. For a picture frame or a cabinet door, the ability to withstand 200 lb. of force at each corner might be plenty (and a door with a glued-in panel will resist racking even more). On the other hand, a chair, with its narrow parts and extreme stresses, or a table leg and apron joint demands the strongest joints possible. You really want to make a table leg secured to the apron with pocket screws? One good bump with the vacuum or a toddler and it's toast!

 

Sincerely

Jeff Jones

http://web.me.com/geppetto425/Site/Welcome.html

[Geoff Simpson]

Unfortunately, that isn't all you're saying Jeff, and yes...you did open a can.  Your assumptions are generic blanket statements directed solely at the tool this forum is about and by, and more importantly, they are statements directed at those of us that frequent the forum and enjoy the handy little tool that brought this community of novices and professionals together.

 

A quick glance at your website shows a person who does respectable work, and clearly he knows it.  However, this doesn't give him license to criticize.  Remember when you started learning your "craft"?  Good. Maybe you could reflect on that moment.  That said, never assume that any of the members here don't have the initiative or skills to learn more or broaden their horizons within wood-working. 

 

You ever get the feeling you got off on the wrong foot?  I'll bet you do

JB said:

Boy did I open up a can of worms! Folks, all I'm saying is after you 'master' the complicated Kreg butt joint (that's satire folks) move on to some better craftsmanship when you start making better stuff. Don't rely solely on a joint that is only meant for face frames and utility stuff.

[steve kidd]

hi again, jb. one question why dont you post pics of your projects to show your fine woodworking talents? would like to see your work, most of us will show our projects. i am very interested to see your fine joinery. hope to see your projects soon.

[John Schaben]

While it appears many members are choosing to become defensive about JB's comments, I will prefer to take them as constructive criticisms. I have my share of Kreg products including the Master System, Kreg Jr, Kreg mini and Kreg Micro as well as some others. I initially started using them for general home repair work and furniture repair. I also found them useful for entire projects, however, one of my quirks is I like to continue to develop my skils so I try to incorporate a new process into each project,, and yes,,, I do end up with a lot of firewood and generally over budget and behind schedule.. Hmmm, maybe I should find a job with the government.. should fit right in. But.. I have acquired an understanding of a new process and chalk any extra expense to tuition

Anyway, following this forum I have seen a lot of questions/discussions/problems being aired where a pocket hole isn't necessarily the optimum, and in some cases, is the worst solution to the situation. Kind of like the new hammer syndrome, everything looks like a nail.

At any rate, everyone has a right to react any way they wish, this is my choice.

[Geoff Simpson]

I've got no problems with JB's opinion.  Heck, i even agree with some of it.  I do however, take offence to ideological statements that paint everybody with the same brush under the guise of being helpful. 

 

But...you know what they say about arguing on the internet....

[Jay Boutwell]

JB since you seem to be intent on making everyone agitated you must not like the kreg jig system, if you have one.  If you do why are you barking at us and kreg tools,  If you are making these types of statement then you must be unhappy with your jig.  If that is the case maybe you should sell it and stick strickly to your type of joints.  You know battle ground is not that far away from me so I will be more that happy to purchase your jig then you won't have to look at it or worry about any more.  If it is like you said you can make the mortise tennon joint  almost as fast as it takes to set up the kreg jig then you don't need the kreg jig anyway.  By the way to correct you about the statement.  It was not made by Rockler, It was made by Kreg Tools when they first introduced the tooling and repeated by Rockler and many more.  Your statement indicating that it was made so they could make more money sounds like you are tryng to get youself into a little court case.  You are also indicating that we don't know anything about making mortise and tennon joints.  Saying things like this indicates a total disrespect to us. 

 

 

[steve kidd]

like i said geoff, all types of joints have thier place. but here on this site we are not all experts in woodworking. most important we dont claim to be master craftsmen, we do the best we can and from the pictures, we meaning the members on this site do great work!!! we dont claim to be great craftsmen, we are here to enjoy the kreg jig and learn from other members and most important to be supportave and postive in our comments!

[steve kidd]

amen brother!

Jay Boutwell said:

JB since you seem to be intent on making everyone agitated you must not like the kreg jig system, if you have one.  If you do why are you barking at us and kreg tools,  If you are making these types of statement then you must be unhappy with your jig.  If that is the case maybe you should sell it and stick strickly to your type of joints.  You know battle ground is not that far away from me so I will be more that happy to purchase your jig then you won't have to look at it or worry about any more.  If it is like you said you can make the mortise tennon joint  almost as fast as it takes to set up the kreg jig then you don't need the kreg jig anyway.  By the way to correct you about the statement.  It was not made by Rockler, It was made by Kreg Tools when they first introduced the tooling and repeated by Rockler and many more.  Your statement indicating that it was made so they could make more money sounds like you are tryng to get youself into a little court case.  You are also indicating that we don't know anything about making mortise and tennon joints.  Saying things like this indicates a total disrespect to us. 

 

 

[John Schaben]

I guess I'm outa here!