Learning from the experienced

[Rita B.]

Hi guys,   Recently put together a face frame and noticed that most of the joints gave me a smile as they came together as intended.   A couple I felt were just short of perfection by not closing as tight and flush as I had hoped.   Trying to learn from past mistakes, I placed a lot of effort into trying to insure that perfect joint by cutting the end boards so that they were smooth and square, clamped the boards to a smooth flat surface and positioned the face clamp with the larger face on the bottom and adjusted clamping pressure so that it was snug but not overly tight.   It did not feel like the screws were being over driven and depth and proper screw length were adequate.   What was I missing?   Anything more that I can try or is it just the nature of the beast when working with wood?   Is there any fixes to improve the appearance of the joint?   I plan to finish with a Danish oil and possible wipe on for durability when complete.

  TIA for your input and I hope that others starting like me find your info just as valuable.

[Leslee]

Hi, Rita.

 I put together a face frame with lap joints to a tool cabinet plan that I made from an article from Woodsmith magazine a few years back. I didn't have the Kreg jig at the time. I did learn that you want the top and bottom to be the same size and then measure from the top of the face frame to the bottom. I also learned another thing from trial and error that you need to take a playing card and tape it to your fence to give you a little more edge on your face frame. I figured that out when I was building drawers to make them flush in fitting them together. Also something to make for yourself. "Corner blocks" they are triangles with cutouts for your clamps to a 90 degree corner. It could also help with squaring up your face frame also. I think they are at wood magazine.com. I hope some of these things I mention might help you out somewhere down the line.

          Leslee

[Rita B.]

Hi Leslee and thanks for your reply.   I too have just completed my first lap joint.   I used pocket holes on the face frame but the lap joints on the cabinet doors.   You are right that there is certainly a learning curve in those as well.   I made some right angle corner blocks when constructing the cabinet which proved very helpful.   Good tip with the playing card.  I have a slight over hang on pieces of my lap joints which I will need to trim flush..  I do not mind so much when I make a error as long as I can see how I created the error and learn from it.  It is the ones that are a obvious mistake that I cannot determine what went wrong that frustrate me!

[Jay Boutwell]

Hi Rita face frames are tricky and can really fool you at times.  There are two methods of building them one of which is build the face frame first and then build the cabinet or build the cabinet and then build the face frame to fit the cabinet.  I use both methods depending on what I am doing however the most often used is to build the cabinet first and then the face frame to fit the cabinet. 

I am sure you have heard me talk about lumber bowing and twisting when it is sawn.  It is best to saw the face frame material to width and then allow it to sit for a day or so as any twisting or bowing will have finished by then.  Then start cutting you stock to length as the material will not twist of bow when cutting the pieces to length as any bowing or twisting will be across the wood grains and not on the length. Set aside any material that is bowed, twisted or not square to the face.

Every body likes to have a cut list and many believe the best way to build something is to first cut out all the pieces and that is where they go wrong and have simple little problems as well as big problems.

A better method is to begin cutting the face frame material by cutting four pieces to length and that is the two stiles (top to bottom or vertical) and the two rails.( side to side or horizontal) . When doing this the proper method is to cut the stiles the total height of the cabinet box and then the rails, the width minus the width of the two stiles and add any overhang you want to use on the cabinet,  I like to use the figure of 1/8 " on each side.

Bore the two rails for pocket screws and then attach them with the pocket screws. I prefer to use glue in all joints and a face frame is no exception as this has a big part in the cabinet as all doors swing off the face frame and that puts a lot of weight on a joint of the frame member.  If you have problems with the parts slipping because of the glue then before you add glue dry fit and add one screw into the face frame and then back it out and remove the screw from the rail.  Sand off or remove any fuzz or wood that emerged from driving in the screw.  Then add the glue and drive in the same screw making sure it entered the hole made by the screw when you drove it in when dry.  Incidentally this is good practice to do when fitting large panels into cabinets as it is a slip and movement problem unless you are able to keep the panel in position when driving in screws.  One screw at each end of the panel before you add the glue makes it very easy to drive in screws and also insures you the accuracy of panel placement that you need.

I should say something here about the cabinet being square.  The cabinet should be checked using the cross corner to corner measurement method.   The cabinet should have been checked for panels being square using a standard framing square and checking from the floor of the cabinet.  If possible the cabinet should had been fitted with a hanging cleat and it's back as this is half the battle of keeping the cabinet square.  This is important step before building a face frame as you will need a square cabinet in which to measure off of to build a square face frame.

On the face frame you now have two rails and two stiles of which the accuracy of the face frame will come from.  Using the cross measuring method insure that the frame is square.   In addition to the face frame being square I should be checked for any bow or difference between the measurements  horizontally checking to be sure that the top and bottom measurement are the same and then the middle of the face frame should be equal.  If not, that means one of both of the outside stiles are bowed and the frame will not be accurate and you will have a tough time making it fit the cabinet accurately. If this measurement is bowed out and not too far off 1/4" or so you may be able to pull it to the same measurement using a long pipe clamp.  Once you do, again check the  square of the frame using the cross corner method and the also check to see that the rail to stile corners are still square.    Leave the clamp on during the remainder of the building the face frame.  The clamp will hold the frame where it needs to be and it might even be such that you will need to leave the clamp on until the frame is attached to the cabinet box.  With the clamp holding the frame in it correct position at least you can get the correct measurements for any rail members that you need to install.  If you remove it and then measure it will be either long or shor, depending on where or not the stile is bowed out or in. If the stile is bowed in then use a clamp that will push the stile outward.  (some clamps are available for this and should be something that everyone should add to their shop tools,  Two would be enough for most cases.

 If this face frame has a center or inter stile (vertical member) then cut it and install that next.  This will pull any warp of the upper and lower rails and insures that the frame is the same in the middle as at each end.  To arrive at the length take a tight measurement at the inside of the rail to stile connection  from bottom to the top and check on both sides to insure that they are both equal.  Cut this length on the chop saw or table saw to give you a tight fit.  Place this stile into the proper location in the frame and glue and screw it into place  It is of utmost importance to be sure that you are placing the enter stile in is correct location and that the top and bottom distance between the outside stile is the same.    This should give you a good foundation in which to build the rest of the face frame. 

Now cut and install the remainder of the inter stiles and rails into face frame carefully checking and fitting the rails to the stiles and inter stiles and checking for them to insure that they are square. 

It is a time consuming process but a necessary thing if you are building any cabinet from a  high end cabinet to a shop cabinet as any little out of square or long or short measurement will result in a face frame that will give you problems installing it to fitting doors,  This is especially true if you are doing inset doors and drawers as the face frame is just that the frame of both the drawers and the doors.  The extend of these problems will be determined by how the stock is prepared referring to it as being straight and non warped and square.

This is why I say to cut the stock to width and allow it to remain un-cut to length for about 8 hours. The cut list is a great thing but only as a picture of what you need.  It is not wise when actually building the project. It does not take much of a change in the lumber to alter the lengths of your cuts in the building of a cabinet.  It is possible one or more of the reasons that I have listed above resulted in your face frame joint failure to come out as you wished resulting in gaps in the joints.  Sometimes just a small adjustment in length will cure the problem and sometimes it is caused in how the frame is assembled.  As you are building the face frame you should be checking for crooked and bowed lumber and being double sure that the stock is square to the face.

If you don't and you cut your cut list to size an during the process a piece you cut turns sour and decides to twist after you secure it to the face frame then how can you expect the face frame to fit correctly.

A note here about the use of the face frame clamp.  Rita you are doing this correctly as I have seen some even on the TV advertisements and home shows where the user will grab the face frame clamp and then place the large dia jaw on the side they are driving in the screws and the smaller on the face side of the frame.  This is wrong as this not only gets the large side in the way of driving some of the screws but it puts a small side on the face where it does not fully cover the joint and keep it flat.

Here again it is something that a person has to practice and the above is my method of building a face frame.

[Rita B.]

Jay, thanks for your informative piece on face frame construction.   I built the cabinet first and then the face frame and I never cut all my pieces of a project first.   Sort of a build as you go type gal :)    I will watch for bows and twists but in this case, it does not appear to be a problem.   They say a mistake is your best teacher.   I may have been dozing off during class LOL

[Khalid Al-Bahi]

Hi Rita,
If you can post a picture or two of the joint you're not satisfied with, it will help diagnosing the problem.
Sometimes it can be solved by pre-drilling the receiving piece (the one with no pocket-hole) or slightly counter-bore the screw exiting hole (in the pocket-holed piece) to accommodate any mushroom (swollen wood fibers due to the drilling action of the screw) or hard dust particles.
Wish you more smiley projects :)