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I am having a issue with spliting face frames when using Kreg screws.  I am using 1x2 oak and a 1 1/4 inch fine thread screw like the chart says.  Any ideas what I am doing wrong?  I am considering going to a 1 inch screw or changing the depth.

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Jay,

 

I apologize. I honestly misunderstood what you were saying and I was trying to get you to clarify. It sounded to me like you were saying that Kreg was stronger than these other jointer methods.  However as a part of trying to be more reasonable I did not argue with what I thought you said. Instead I assumed that I must have misunderstood  and asked you to clarify. That is how I meant it. I'm sorry if you thought I was making some kind of accusation.

 

I am trying to tone down the way I am posting. My style is obviously annoying people so I am trying to change. Unfortunately  I think you are now overreacting to anything new I post because of my earlier messages. I am trying to change but you are not giving me a chance to change. This time I tried to ask you a simple question. Please reread the statement you made and see if you agree that it was possible to misunderstand your words. The words "quickest and strongest" really sounded to me like you meant the quickest method for butt joints as well as the strongest possible method for butt joints.

 

Again my apologies. I really am trying to adapt to the tone people prefer on this list. I have been misinterpreted and misunderstood but the fault is entirely mine. I suppose only time will mend this one. I should just stop posting.

 

 

 

 

 

Be quiet!

zencuke said:

Eric,

 

You are right and I apologize. I don't mean to be abrupt with the kind users who are trying to help. However I am annoyed with what I perceive as a misleading and manipulative marketing strategy on the part of Kreg which verges on dishonesty. This is not after all an independent forum of users who have come together on their own to support each other on their own ticket. That may be why the users are here but this forum is provided by Kreg to give cheap support (cheap for Kreg) to users. That makes this forum as close as there is to a complaint desk. Right now I am in the position of suspecting that I spent money based on false pretenses. That is not to say that I won't eventually find the Kreg quite useful. It just won't be as useful as I was hoping. Unfortunately my annoyance with Kreg has crept into my replies to users just trying to help.  For that I apologize again. I'll try to keep a more civil tongue.

 

To answer your question the reason I bought the Kreg is because of Kreg's promises about ease of use. The Kreg does not enable me to do anything I don't already know how to do but I was hoping it would simplify and speed up some things. I do use dowels and glue (and dado's and rabbits etc.) and I will continue to do so where appropriate but I was hoping the Kreg could replace many of those uses. Face frames are not structural and I assumed they would be an ideal case for Kreg's strengths so I decided to start with a simple face frame with the rest of the cabinet done with more traditional techniques. 

 

Any bonding technique has strengths and weaknesses. There is no technique that solves all problems. The key for me is to try and  understand the relative strengths so you can choose the right technique for each problem. To simplify (leaving out such techniques as mortise and tenon, dado's and the various biscuit cutters) there are three cases I'm trying to compare. Kreg with no glue (weakest) , Kreg with glue (stronger) and dowels with glue (strongest.) The other dimension to consider is ease of use. I had assumed that the Kreg would always be easier than dowels and I could choose sole based on required strength. Dowels with glue have to be done very carefully. Accurate alignment is critical. It is easy to screw up and need to start over, cutting new pieces (I speak from lots of experience.) Glue setups based on clamps take time and can be awkward to work with. The Kreg ability to assemble one part at a time without complex setups, depending only on flat and square surfaces is very attractive. I know how to make square and flat. The ability to move on to the next stage of a project without waiting for glue to dry could also be a big time saver. These are the things i was hoping to gain.

 

So I happily tried out my new Kreg toy on some pine scraps with great results and decided it was time to incorporate Kreg joints in a real project. So far I am finding that the Kreg takes more understanding to get right than I thought it would. It has not been much easier than using dowels in the first place, though to be fair I spent a long time (many years) learning how to use dowels. I also made a poor choice of material for an experiment with a new tool. MDF has its strengths but it is notoriously difficult to screw into. That is why the rest of this cabinet is rabbited and dado-ed. Normally I don't even try using screws with MDF. That isn't the Kreg's fault but I was hoping the special screws with "self cutting threads" would eliminate that problem. No luck.

 

I am not an expert woodworker but I am a long way from a beginner. I've been hacking away in basement shop's for roughly 50 years. I'm not much of a finish cabinet maker. I'm better at making things strong and solid than making them pretty. I'm a technology geek and I'm partly annoyed with myself (and embarrassed) for believing Kreg's hype. I of all people should have known better. Talk to me again in a year and I'll probably love my Kreg, after I figure out what it is good for and what it is NOT good for.

 

Best regards

 

- zencuke

 

I have only built 2 sets of face frames since I discovered Kreg. My 1st set was perfect, my 2nd set had a splitting problem. I did use an impact driver on the second set and thought that might be the cause. I tried some pieces of the scrap with my drill/driver set real low and still expeienced the spliting. I am using Poplar and the course 1-1/4 screws. In giving it some considerable thought I have come up with a POTENTIAL cause, but do not have the facts to back it up. The first Poplar was bought from HD and the second from a hardwoods supplier. The second purchase just seemed like it might have been harder or dryer. Most likely my imagination, but... It also sat in my warm/dry basement for a couple of weeks before cutting and assembling. It may have just been cut from a different part of the tree too. Point is, I'm not ready to blame the Kreg Jig. The split was not bad enough to reject the frame since it is for cabinets in my basement anyway.

 

I have seen way too much furniture come apart that was put together with dowels. I think they shrink when they dry and I personally never use them. Just a hobbiest's opinion. :-) 

Steve, just a possible cause of splits.  I found along time ago that using the fine thread screw prevents alot of problems.  The course thread is a strong screw and great for things such as mdf and sort woods however I hardly use a course thread.  Instead I use the fine thread because of the thread pitch causing the screw to be very aggressive as it enters the wood.  This aggressive threading action puts pressure in the wood grains.  For a long time the course thread was not a thing that was sold that much and all you could find was the fine thread.  I think if thoes whom are having problems with splitting would find less problems if they tried the fine thread.

Steve Osterday said:

I have only built 2 sets of face frames since I discovered Kreg. My 1st set was perfect, my 2nd set had a splitting problem. I did use an impact driver on the second set and thought that might be the cause. I tried some pieces of the scrap with my drill/driver set real low and still expeienced the spliting. I am using Poplar and the course 1-1/4 screws. In giving it some considerable thought I have come up with a POTENTIAL cause, but do not have the facts to back it up. The first Poplar was bought from HD and the second from a hardwoods supplier. The second purchase just seemed like it might have been harder or dryer. Most likely my imagination, but... It also sat in my warm/dry basement for a couple of weeks before cutting and assembling. It may have just been cut from a different part of the tree too. Point is, I'm not ready to blame the Kreg Jig. The split was not bad enough to reject the frame since it is for cabinets in my basement anyway.

 

I have seen way too much furniture come apart that was put together with dowels. I think they shrink when they dry and I personally never use them. Just a hobbiest's opinion. :-) 

I had the same problem with some fir for wainscot frames using the appropriate

coarse thread screw. I have two comments.

1- leave longer overhangs on the stiles for later trimming

 

2-I predrilled through the pocket hole when the joint was glued and clamped in place on my 

    clamp table (which I really, really love) with a bit that was not quite long enough for that

     angle and it flexed a bit, but it worked. Scary stuff when you are that far along in a project

     for money. I am going to look for a longer small diameter bit for the times that I feel at 

     risk for such a split. Maybe the Kreg people would address this situation (hint hint).

 

Good luck,

Don.

I had an idea, when I am using the kreg system the screws are going into the  piece on a slant away from the end. If the screw was entering the wood on a slant toward the end of the wood, then I could see where there could be splitting. In order to avoid that, I would drill a pilot hole into the piece of wood after the kreg drilling had been completed. I would use maybe 3/32" drill bit. The wood pieces would have to be clamped into there final configuration and this drill hole would have to go through both pieces which were to be joined, being careful not to break through the wood leaving a noticeable hole. With this pilot hole for the kreg screw, some of the pressure for splitting would be relieved, but some of the strength of the joint may be comprised. Experimenting with different options would provide the techniques needed to avoid the splitting.
I'll give that a try on my current scraps and see how that works out. You may on to something. Thanks for the suggestion.

Jay Boutwell said:
Steve, just a possible cause of splits.  I found along time ago that using the fine thread screw prevents alot of problems.  The course thread is a strong screw and great for things such as mdf and sort woods however I hardly use a course thread.  Instead I use the fine thread because of the thread pitch causing the screw to be very aggressive as it enters the wood.  This aggressive threading action puts pressure in the wood grains.  For a long time the course thread was not a thing that was sold that much and all you could find was the fine thread.  I think if thoes whom are having problems with splitting would find less problems if they tried the fine thread.

Steve Osterday said:

I have only built 2 sets of face frames since I discovered Kreg. My 1st set was perfect, my 2nd set had a splitting problem. I did use an impact driver on the second set and thought that might be the cause. I tried some pieces of the scrap with my drill/driver set real low and still expeienced the spliting. I am using Poplar and the course 1-1/4 screws. In giving it some considerable thought I have come up with a POTENTIAL cause, but do not have the facts to back it up. The first Poplar was bought from HD and the second from a hardwoods supplier. The second purchase just seemed like it might have been harder or dryer. Most likely my imagination, but... It also sat in my warm/dry basement for a couple of weeks before cutting and assembling. It may have just been cut from a different part of the tree too. Point is, I'm not ready to blame the Kreg Jig. The split was not bad enough to reject the frame since it is for cabinets in my basement anyway.

 

I have seen way too much furniture come apart that was put together with dowels. I think they shrink when they dry and I personally never use them. Just a hobbiest's opinion. :-) 

Jay, I read about that nickel trick and was going to use try it, but when I compared it to using the jig setup it wasn't quite the same and so I got scared away from doing it. I think this was with some half-inch plywood using the smaller black jig with the 5/16 drill. It sounds like it makes perfect sense to me and I think it simplifies the setup. What does Kreg say about this method? 

Jay Boutwell said:
Eddie, I build alot of oak face frames and baring that you may have some poor grade of wood that has a tendacy of splitting I agree with David when he says that the screw may be too deep.  The method I use in setting the stop collar is simple and I ignore the setting guage on the tool  I set the jig for 3/4 material and insert the drill bit into the jig with no drill attached and loosen the collar.  I reach into my pocket and pull out a nickel.  I lay the nickel on the face of the jig and set the drill bit down onto it.  I tighten the collar and drill my wood.  What this does is that it prevents the drill bit from going too deep in the wood and also leaves the point from exiting the hole.  If you do drill the hole shy of the exiting of the bit point you also do not leave any projection of wood like a bump therefore you get a tight wood to wood contact and a tighter joint without over tightening of the screw.  Works for me and been drilling with the Kregs for over 20 years.
Hi Vanessa, I also have the small jig. You can do essentially everything you can do with the bigger jig, but it is a little more difficult to do.  I have the Kreg clamp for that jig, I think it is the kreg jr jig. You can't do the nickel trick unless you have the bigger jig. Actually, I think the small jig is more adaptable to more applications. I am used to it now and can easily drill my kreg holes. Just one thought, the kreg holes never completely go through the piece I am drilling. Maybe a good thing.

Vanessa Best said:


Vanessa Best said:
Hi there... I am BRAND NEW to all of this.  I have the small, 2 pocket hole, version of the kreg jig.  I was reading your specific advice here regarding using a nickel, and I just can't seem to visualize what you are doing.  Could you explain more, or maybe post a picture?

My woodshop has 2 major tools, a Jet portable table saw, cost about $350 and a 10" miter saw. I can crosscut and rip wood to very exacting specifications with these two tools. I bought a router and router table, after awhile the adjustment mechanism on the router froze, the router is now junk. I do not have a drill press to do doweling or a workable router to do routed joints. What I do have is a kreg Jr with the kreg clamp. This allows me to make strong joints without the need to be proficient with these advanced jointery techniques. I am building kitchen cabinets with the kreg system and using 1"x2"s for corner supports. My cabinets are made out of shiplap, as it is about the cheapest wood product out there. When completed, the cabinets are absolutely beautiful white pine cabinets which I stain and polyurethane. The point I am trying to make is the kreg system is very appropriate for me. Others may want to use other joinery techniques to create cabinets of a different caliber, but for me the kreg system is a great tool. The kreg system allows me to build a cabinet with virtually no explosed screws to be seen from outside the cabinet. That could not be done by any other joinery system.

I hope my rant is not too out of line, here. I just wanted to point out that in the right situation the Kreg system can be a very valuable tool.

Hi Steve.  I will share another trick I have used in the past when I was building face frames out of exotic and or other fancy woods of which I wanted extra insurance against splits.  This was not often but there has been occassions when I was building custom projects with a face frame and the wood was especially wild grained and would be hard to match.  Since the splits occurrs through the drilled piece and most often on the very top near the pocket hole rim i would clamp up the two members using a face frame clamp and before i would start any screws i took an ordinary "c" clamp and clamped across the drilled piece to added extra inward pressure against the grain.  Then simply screwed the screw in as normal.  I did nothing out of the normal in the drilling of the pocket holes.  It is just and extra insurance policy on any change of a split of my exotic or hard to get wood. the cracks usually occurre where the red arrow is on the drilled piece.  Just another trick learned along the way.  Perhaps this is another reason why I have had very limited split problems with my joints.  When selecting my stock for a project i carefully select it for grain configuration and void any that look as if they could be a grain direction problem especially where any joint will be made.  I don't throw it away I use it in other places within the project   

Steve Osterday said:
I'll give that a try on my current scraps and see how that works out. You may on to something. Thanks for the suggestion.

Jay Boutwell said:
Steve, just a possible cause of splits.  I found along time ago that using the fine thread screw prevents alot of problems.  The course thread is a strong screw and great for things such as mdf and sort woods however I hardly use a course thread.  Instead I use the fine thread because of the thread pitch causing the screw to be very aggressive as it enters the wood.  This aggressive threading action puts pressure in the wood grains.  For a long time the course thread was not a thing that was sold that much and all you could find was the fine thread.  I think if thoes whom are having problems with splitting would find less problems if they tried the fine thread.

Steve Osterday said:

I have only built 2 sets of face frames since I discovered Kreg. My 1st set was perfect, my 2nd set had a splitting problem. I did use an impact driver on the second set and thought that might be the cause. I tried some pieces of the scrap with my drill/driver set real low and still expeienced the spliting. I am using Poplar and the course 1-1/4 screws. In giving it some considerable thought I have come up with a POTENTIAL cause, but do not have the facts to back it up. The first Poplar was bought from HD and the second from a hardwoods supplier. The second purchase just seemed like it might have been harder or dryer. Most likely my imagination, but... It also sat in my warm/dry basement for a couple of weeks before cutting and assembling. It may have just been cut from a different part of the tree too. Point is, I'm not ready to blame the Kreg Jig. The split was not bad enough to reject the frame since it is for cabinets in my basement anyway.

 

I have seen way too much furniture come apart that was put together with dowels. I think they shrink when they dry and I personally never use them. Just a hobbiest's opinion. :-) 

I have not seen any pictures of the original splits nor of the MDF splits.  Could it be that the holes were too near the edge?  I took some scrap wood and created a joint that had a split.  After looking at the end grain, I was surprised where the split ran.  I tried joining the same piece to another and there was no split.

I am learned about 50 years ago that it is a bad idea to screw or nail too close to the end. 

I am attaching two photos. 

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