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As wonderful as the Kreg jig is, it is simply not a good substitute for fine joinery! Look up joinery tests in Fine Woodworking, would you rather build an heirloom piece of furniture with tried and true solid wood tenons or butt joints and screws?

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I posted my website at end of the last reply.....

steve kidd said:
hi again, jb. one question why dont you post pics of your projects to show your fine woodworking talents? would like to see your work, most of us will show our projects. i am very interested to see your fine joinery. hope to see your projects soon.
Nope, I'm just amazed at how many people are using this joint for the wrong purposes, don't regret a thing!

Geoff Simpson said:

Unfortunately, that isn't all you're saying Jeff, and yes...you did open a can.  Your assumptions are generic blanket statements directed solely at the tool this forum is about and by, and more importantly, they are statements directed at those of us that frequent the forum and enjoy the handy little tool that brought this community of novices and professionals together.

 

A quick glance at your website shows a person who does respectable work, and clearly he knows it.  However, this doesn't give him license to criticize.  Remember when you started learning your "craft"?  Good. Maybe you could reflect on that moment.  That said, never assume that any of the members here don't have the initiative or skills to learn more or broaden their horizons within wood-working. 

 

You ever get the feeling you got off on the wrong foot?  I'll bet you do

JB said:

Boy did I open up a can of worms! Folks, all I'm saying is after you 'master' the complicated Kreg butt joint (that's satire folks) move on to some better craftsmanship when you start making better stuff. Don't rely solely on a joint that is only meant for face frames and utility stuff.

PS  I thought that's what forums were for, constructive criticism! "Criticism is the judgement of the merits and faults of the work or actions of an individual or group by another (the critic). To criticize does not necessarily imply to find fault, but the word is often taken to mean the simple expression of an objection against prejudice, or a disapproval."  (Wickipedia) Most of you guys are taking this the wrong way, true I am a little prejudiced against the Kreg jig but I also love it for what it is intended for. "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few."


JB said:

Nope, I'm just amazed at how many people are using this joint for the wrong purposes, don't regret a thing!

Geoff Simpson said:

Unfortunately, that isn't all you're saying Jeff, and yes...you did open a can.  Your assumptions are generic blanket statements directed solely at the tool this forum is about and by, and more importantly, they are statements directed at those of us that frequent the forum and enjoy the handy little tool that brought this community of novices and professionals together.

 

A quick glance at your website shows a person who does respectable work, and clearly he knows it.  However, this doesn't give him license to criticize.  Remember when you started learning your "craft"?  Good. Maybe you could reflect on that moment.  That said, never assume that any of the members here don't have the initiative or skills to learn more or broaden their horizons within wood-working. 

 

You ever get the feeling you got off on the wrong foot?  I'll bet you do

JB said:

Boy did I open up a can of worms! Folks, all I'm saying is after you 'master' the complicated Kreg butt joint (that's satire folks) move on to some better craftsmanship when you start making better stuff. Don't rely solely on a joint that is only meant for face frames and utility stuff.

I never said it was made by Rockler. And I never said I don't like it, I'm SIMPLY saying to use it for what it's intended for.

Jay Boutwell said:

JB since you seem to be intent on making everyone agitated you must not like the kreg jig system, if you have one.  If you do why are you barking at us and kreg tools,  If you are making these types of statement then you must be unhappy with your jig.  If that is the case maybe you should sell it and stick strickly to your type of joints.  You know battle ground is not that far away from me so I will be more that happy to purchase your jig then you won't have to look at it or worry about any more.  If it is like you said you can make the mortise tennon joint  almost as fast as it takes to set up the kreg jig then you don't need the kreg jig anyway.  By the way to correct you about the statement.  It was not made by Rockler, It was made by Kreg Tools when they first introduced the tooling and repeated by Rockler and many more.  Your statement indicating that it was made so they could make more money sounds like you are tryng to get youself into a little court case.  You are also indicating that we don't know anything about making mortise and tennon joints.  Saying things like this indicates a total disrespect to us. 

 

 

AMEN brother, thank you!

John Schaben said:

While it appears many members are choosing to become defensive about JB's comments, I will prefer to take them as constructive criticisms. I have my share of Kreg products including the Master System, Kreg Jr, Kreg mini and Kreg Micro as well as some others. I initially started using them for general home repair work and furniture repair. I also found them useful for entire projects, however, one of my quirks is I like to continue to develop my skils so I try to incorporate a new process into each project,, and yes,,, I do end up with a lot of firewood and generally over budget and behind schedule.. Hmmm, maybe I should find a job with the government.. should fit right in. But.. I have acquired an understanding of a new process and chalk any extra expense to tuition

Anyway, following this forum I have seen a lot of questions/discussions/problems being aired where a pocket hole isn't necessarily the optimum, and in some cases, is the worst solution to the situation. Kind of like the new hammer syndrome, everything looks like a nail.

At any rate, everyone has a right to react any way they wish, this is my choice.

Another thing to remember Jay is that all sales and marketing depts are made up of liars, they have to lie and stretch the truth and spin their products to meet their sales goals and quotas. I don't care what it is, that is the truth behind 90% of all the feel good ads.

Jay Boutwell said:

"A independent lab completed testing a few years back that showed that a pocket hole joint failed at 707 pounds when subjected to a shear load while a mortise and tenon joint failed at 453 pounds (approximately 35% stronger). Pocket hole joints are tremendously strong for a couple of reasons. 1. The use of a mechanical fastener (screw) is significantly stronger than the material around it (wood), and 2. The amount of direct clamping force placed on the joint by driving the screw combined with today's glue technology makes for a sensationally strong bond."

 

This is a quote of a statement about the kreg pocket screw vs the mortise and tenon joint.  In case anyone out there is doubting.  I recall this statement made several years ago and to my knowledge it has not been disputed or proven wrong.  So all you gals and guys out there, keep a drilling them screws.

My final word. Okay, perhaps I should have been a little less offensive with my very first comment. And in case anyone still thinks erroneously that I hate the Kreg jig, here are a few more pics: For the sofa table I just made I used pocket screws to secure one half of the drawer runners, the other side is a half lap joint. But it's for a joint that is only supporting the slight weight of several small shallow drawers. (I would have used biscuits but I don't have a biscuit jointer). Again it was used for one single almost non-weight bearing joint that doesn't show in this table, I certainly would not use it to join the legs to the aprons!  I made a homemade pocket screw jig about 15 years ago to drill holes in the aprons of our country kitchen table to secure the table top. There are also two dovetailed cross members with countersunk screws into the top. And to show you how I feel about joints, not only are the table aprons tenoned into the legs, I also added leg hardware to further secure the joint and prevent racking. If you are going to spend the time to build something, build it to last! The last picture is one of my shop assembly tables with a brace added with pocket screws.... I have a Kreg master jig that I won in a drawing and I'm glad I have it.

 

I am amazed at some of the projects on this forum, and I am constantly surprized at what my fellow craftsman can make. All I do is follow a plan.  But like one of the forum members just said, "a pocket hole isn't necessarily the optimum, and in some cases, is the worst solution to the situation". The same thing happened when biscuit jointers came out a few years ago, all of a sudden it was used for every joint in every woodworking plan, yikes! Not too long ago one of the magazines had plans for a dining chair using nothing but dowel joints! Sure it was catered to the average woodworker because anyone can make a damn dowel joint but that is the worst joint to use for a chair because almost every joint is subjected to constant twisting and racking, it's doomed to fail quicker than a Walmart chair not to mention the fact that dowel joints simply don't work. Look it up. Okay I've ranted and raved enough and I'm sure I've offended somebody again. Keep your fingers......

Looking at the work/pictures that I have done you will see a mixture of mortise/tenon, biscuits, pocket screws etc.  I still use pocket screws in certain things, like aprons on a table, why use mortise/tenon when it's not going to be seen?  I also agree that the pocket screws opened a lot of folks up to woodworking and gave them the confidence to try (myself included).  In my opinion I don't see how a pocket screw is any more "cheating" so to speak, than using a bisuit jointer.  With all that said, I would always use Mortise/Tenons in my headboards and footboards just due to the stress and size of all pieces involved. 

These blanket chests have no mechanical fasteners except in the base, everything else was glued and mortised in some fashion.  These blanket chest where all pocket screwed together and then had cedar lining to cover the screws up.  I don't think you can tell by either one of the photos how I built these chests.  I will always use my Kreg Jig and pocket screws.  Just because I can do mortise and tenon doesn't mean I will in every project. 
for building a closet organizer, Would this tool be worth having for the novice

Yes John,

The pocket hole joinery, would be very helpful and faster, for fastening/assembly of many joints.

 

Check out Kregs many ideas/illustrations, that depict the joints, where pocket holes are useful.

There are some books, on the market, that illustrate the use of ''pocket hole/screw'' joinery.

 

One book that comes to mind, is ''The pocket hole drilling jig project book'', by Danny Proulx---

very informative.

 



John Paxton said:

for building a closet organizer, Would this tool be worth having for the novice

Also, ''google'' ---''pocket hole joinery''.

Lots of info available.

Check-it-out.

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