Kreg Owners' Community

Hello Kreg Executives,

I am soon to begin finishing my son's basement.

After checking with his city's building department (Southfield, Michigan) I have been informed that the Kreg HD screws are not approved for framing without the "ICC-ES" certification - which Kreg does not have.

One would think that Kreg, being such a major player in the marketplace, would immediately attain this certification.

Please explain, what am I missing?

I look forward to the Kreg decision-makers prompt reply.

Thank you in advance for your consideration and response.

Marty Rosenbloom

PS I am told that Kreg currently has the ICC-ES certification for their deck screws. I have been advised that the HD screws are much stronger than the deck screws, so what is the aversion to accreditation?

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Hello Marty

A very interesting post to read, maybe the deck screws are SS stainless steel ?

I will be interested to see if the accreditaion is approved

Robert,

I will be more interested to see if the accreditation is even applied for.

Thanks for the response though.

Marty

I guess I don't understand why the fuss or need to pursuing accreditation for the use of Kreg pocket hole screws in framing construction.

There are more economical and suitable fasteners and methods for framing construction, to put up simple 2x4's, in constructing basement walls.  

Simple framing nails and/or using a framing nailer are a lot less costly.

Drilling individual pocket holes is more labor intense.

Also the labor costs of driving-in a screw in each predrilled hole.

Screws are more costly over framing nails.

Using a framing nailer is very simple---

place the tool to the workpiece, pull the trigger and your done.

It's that simple.

Screws are hard and brittle material---they will break when bent, also the heads easily break off with a single bend. Wire-form nails bend and flex.

It will take several bends, back and forth to break a nail.

Simple framing nails and air-nailers are common in the construction industry.

Kregs pocket hole screws were initially developed for cabinet frame construction, as alternate methods to other joinery methods.

It has evolved into using pocket hole joinery for other simple wood construction tasks, such as

simple boxes, frames, and the like.

Hello Ken,

Thank you for your informative reply. Please know that I very much respect your woodworking knowledge and appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Let me start by saying I agree 100% with your response. In fact I do have a Framing Nailer and for all but one area I do plan on building the walls horizontally, standing them plumb, and securing them.

The exception is the center wall. Here my plan is to build this wall with 2 x 6's. I want to Ramset the top plate into the I-beam, plumb bob the bottom treated plate, then attach each stud individually. I will then be able to hide each of the lolly columns.

The reason for building this wall in such a manner is the I-beam is tight between two air ducts. I will not have room for a Nailer but I will be able to use the Kreg HD screws.

Although this is only for one wall the local building inspector told me he will be very strict with compliance pertaining to the building code. So that being the case, and Kreg suggesting using the HD Jig for framing (where code permits), then I think perhaps the approval is a good thing.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

Marty

Hi Marty, I am glad you found out that the code prevented the use of screws in the framing.  It is just like I explained back in January where I told you that the screws are brittle and break where the framing nail will bend many times without breaking.   There is only one screw that I know of that is allowed in most places for the framing of most framing lumber and these are called "Timber locks"  which are very expensive and for the most part too large for any normal stick framing of 2 by lumber.

 There is one other consideration to look at and that is the framing gun.  Unless your framing gun shoots the full head nail you most likely will not get the framing to pass either.  During the last 10 or 12 years the most codes prevent the use of the clip nail head which are still manufactured to fit the older guns.  The clip nail head is one that has the head cut back so they could fit more nails into the magazine of the nail guns. 

Good luck with your project.

Marty,

Re “plumbing” a wall---

I’d suggest using a 3-4ft level vs a “plumb bob”.  There’s a potential for errors, and not achieving accuracy.

Check the level for accuracy---rotate the level 180 and flip the level end for end, so as to double check for accuracy.

 

Careful using a “ramset” tool---potential injury exists.

The fastener must be securely anchored.

How can you be sure that the fastener is adequately anchored and that it’s securing the object, when the anchor point is not visible?

Do you have a plan to check it out?

Check the OEM ramset fastener  installation criteria.


BTW---some construction codes may require a wood framed structure around the metal “eye” beam, with the framing anchored to wood.  Wood movement occurs and may fracture/split around the metal studs anchored into the metal beam.


Jay,

Thanks for sharing on this topic.

I did purchase a full (round) head nailer for that exact reason.

As mentioned I will be using nails on most of my project....perhaps all if I can get the nailer into the tight space.

Marty
 Jay Boutwell said:

Hi Marty, I am glad you found out that the code prevented the use of screws in the framing.  It is just like I explained back in January where I told you that the screws are brittle and break where the framing nail will bend many times without breaking.   There is only one screw that I know of that is allowed in most places for the framing of most framing lumber and these are called "Timber locks"  which are very expensive and for the most part too large for any normal stick framing of 2 by lumber.

 There is one other consideration to look at and that is the framing gun.  Unless your framing gun shoots the full head nail you most likely will not get the framing to pass either.  During the last 10 or 12 years the most codes prevent the use of the clip nail head which are still manufactured to fit the older guns.  The clip nail head is one that has the head cut back so they could fit more nails into the magazine of the nail guns. 

Good luck with your project.

Ken,

Thanks again for your follow up.

In addition to using a plumb bob I also plan to use levels. I plan on using a 2', 4', and 6' on various parts of the construction.

The Ramset I have is the "gun" type, not the hammer type, and I will be very careful using it. I will be able to verify that the nail is secure.

And I will verify with the local inspector that the I-beam is done to code.

Thanks again for your sound advise.

Marty


 
Ken Darga said:

Marty,

Re “plumbing” a wall---

I’d suggest using a 3-4ft level vs a “plumb bob”.  There’s a potential for errors, and not achieving accuracy.

Check the level for accuracy---rotate the level 180 and flip the level end for end, so as to double check for accuracy.

 

Careful using a “ramset” tool---potential injury exists.

The fastener must be securely anchored.

How can you be sure that the fastener is adequately anchored and that it’s securing the object, when the anchor point is not visible?

Do you have a plan to check it out?

Check the OEM ramset fastener  installation criteria.


BTW---some construction codes may require a wood framed structure around the metal “eye” beam, with the framing anchored to wood.  Wood movement occurs and may fracture/split around the metal studs anchored into the metal beam.

Driving nails in close quarters/limited space:

I use palm nailers for this purpose---they are very useful.

Smaller sizes available, for smaller nails and on up to #16's.

I have a HD industrial palm nailer---useful for several applications.

Kit includes:

various short and long nose pieces ---

install finishing nails and nails with full heads---

and another for large nails on up to #20---

and another nose piece for installing roofing nails.

A chiseling head, that swivels 360---

removed wood chips rapidly---

tile removal, and the like.

A hammering head for smoothing---

closing seams in sheet metal work;

flattening dimples, bumps or high spots---

smoothing irregular surfaces.  

Place a wood block under the hammer head to avoid damaging a delicate surface.

This palm nailer gives off vibration---

the tool comes with a padded body cover, and

I also use a padded palm glove.

A very useful tool in the remodeling and construction business trades.

Marty, 

hammer away---make lots of hammering noise.

It'll keep the unwanted guests back a distance, as well as keeping them from breathing down your neck and looking over your shoulder.


Thanks ken.

That's a new one to me. I will stop by HD and check it out.


Ken Darga said:

Driving nails in close quarters/limited space:

I use palm nailers for this purpose---they are very useful.

Smaller sizes available, for smaller nails and on up to #16's.

I have a HD industrial palm nailer---useful for several applications.

Kit includes:

various short and long nose pieces ---

install finishing nails and nails with full heads---

and another for large nails on up to #20---

and another nose piece for installing roofing nails.

A chiseling head, that swivels 360---

removed wood chips rapidly---

tile removal, and the like.

A hammering head for smoothing---

closing seams in sheet metal work;

flattening dimples, bumps or high spots---

smoothing irregular surfaces.  

Place a wood block under the hammer head to avoid damaging a delicate surface.

This palm nailer gives off vibration---

the tool comes with a padded body cover, and

I also use a padded palm glove.

A very useful tool in the remodeling and construction business trades.

Marty,

The HD stores only stock the small air-powered palm nailer.

For a HD industrial version, like I've described above, you'll have to go to a place that specializes in air-nailing'driving tools.

Marty Rosenbloom said:


Thanks ken.

That's a new one to me. I will stop by HD and check it out.

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