Cabinets; a question about spacing for countertops, stretchers, and how to attach

[Derek Gould]

I'm about to start building replacement cabinets for my summer home, and I have a question.

I am building frameless cabinets, 3/4" plywood all round, at a standard size of 34.5" high and 24" deep. This leaves 1.5" for the countertop, but it appears the laminate countertop I will be using is 3/4" material with a lip at the front that comes down another 3/4". Therefore, I need to get the countertop up another 3/4" to get out of the way of my doors.

The only other cupboards I have built were face frame, and this wasn't a problem since the lip was still above the face frame.

I'm thinking I will add additional stretchers or spacers at the top; is that the recommended way?

[Jay Boutwell]

Derek, Normally when I build European aka frameless cabinets I build them all out of 3/4 material for the bottom and the interior panels that divide the cabinet.  Since the standard cabinet for a kitchen is 36 inches from the floor to the counter top surface you would cut your panels at 34.5 inches for getting that height.  Since your specs is 34.5 inches, this measurment is set up to use a second 3/4" piece on the top of the cabinet and then the 3/4" countertop is added it makes the height for a standard cabinet correct. Since the normal self edge of most countertops is 1.5 inches it will cover and hide the 3/4" top you added. 

A word from experience do your self a favor as well as the person who uses the cabinets and add in a 1.5 wide rail horizonally across the top between each panel.  This will get you enough clearence between the counter top edge and the drawer fronts or the top door rail.  What some do not realize that in use often the person who closes the drawer closes it using the front with the hand over the top and gets their hand scraped or pinched between the counter top and the drawer front.  This happens more often with lower cabinet doors that are full cabinet height.  The person is standing up most of the time when the door gets closed and often again not closed with the hand on handle of the door but on the top edge of the door.  Since the counter top extends outward further that the closed door or drawer the closing hand get driven into the self edge of the counter top.

As far as streachers there should be one in the lower cabinet at the rear that serves as a method of securing the cabinet to the wall studs.  This is sometimes refered to as the nail cleat.  Then the  added 3/4 " ply across the top should then be attached to the streacher.   I also placed a streacher at the front running horizonally and flat across the cabinet width.  I also pocket screwed this strecher to the top rail.  This all makes the cabinet very strong and gives you a place to anchor the added sheet of plywood to the front of the cabinet.   The added sheet also gives you a method of attaching the counter top by simply screwing through it into the countertop.  Another reason is that this added sheet of plywood will insure that a heavy sink filled with water will not break the laminate top and the sink fall into the cabinet interior.  It will give you a more solid and longer lasting couter top as well.

The next problem you will have is dealing with door opening clearence  between two doors hinged off the same panel.  I am sure you will be using European hinges so this matter is taken care by using both "Half Cranked" and "Full Cranked hinges and the assorted different thickness of mounting plates.

My favorite and less troublesome hinges are either "Salice" or "Blum" as they are strong long lasting hinge and offer the best selection of hinge configuration degree openings and mounting plates.

It sounds exciting to do.

 

[Derek Gould]

Thanks, Jay; as always a very helpful response. I was wondering about the spacing at top, but the use of a top rail seems like a good idea to add additional clearance without sacrificing cabinet space. I assume the frontstretcher goes behind the top rail rather than sitting on top of it? Also, do you suggest using plywood or board stock for the rail? I'd be inclined to use plywood.

The cabinets are being built entirely from 3/4" birch plywood, by the way; I took your earlier suggestions to heart and decided to go for the strength and consistency. Plus; I just built a wardrobe out of TFM, and realized how flaky (literally!) that stuff is.

[Jay Boutwell]

Derek, Yes the front strecher goes behing the front rail and is glue and screwed to the rail.  If you pocket screw it so that the pocket holes are on top you will hide them from the interior of the cabinet.  This will also hold the cabinets together and after the install add the additional 3/4" sheet just before the installation of the counter top.  As for the front rail you can use plywood however if you are using birch I would consider using birch solid stock.  Something also I didn't mention is that you will need to hide the plywood end grains on the face of the cabinet and I would suggest that you cut your panels back to 23 and 3/4" in width and edge band these by gluing and pin nailing a piece of 1/4"  thick solid birch stock cut to fit the ply thichness instead of using any type of iron on or glue on veneer.  It is just much stronger and you will be much happier with doing it this way. 

Yes, your right about the flaky some of the sheet goods such as the particle boards are.  From experience I can tell you that there is no cabinet better made that that of solid woods and plywood.  You even have to be careful of the thin veneer that is on plywood and on exposed ends you have to watch for he chatter marks made by the knife when it cuts the veneer from a log.  I have seen these in even the best grade of plywood and I have made it a habit to use a solid panel on the outside or visable parts of a cabinet.  If you do this all you have to do is either substitute the plywood pieces with solid glued up panels of birch or make a seperate one that is added on by screwing it onto the cabinet panels.  Any more help needed please feel free to ask. I'm always glad to help at any time.
 
Derek Gould said:

Thanks, Jay; as always a very helpful response. I was wondering about the spacing at top, but the use of a top rail seems like a good idea to add additional clearance without sacrificing cabinet space. I assume the frontstretcher goes behind the top rail rather than sitting on top of it? Also, do you suggest using plywood or board stock for the rail? I'd be inclined to use plywood.

The cabinets are being built entirely from 3/4" birch plywood, by the way; I took your earlier suggestions to heart and decided to go for the strength and consistency. Plus; I just built a wardrobe out of TFM, and realized how flaky (literally!) that stuff is.

[Derek Gould]

One other question; I was going to use 3/4" plywood for the backs as well. If I do this, would I need to use a nail cleat?

Where I live (Newfoundland, Canada) we pay a premium for lumber and sheet goods. When I was buying the sheet stock I got a deal on birch G2S 3/4" plywood; it was only about $7 more a sheet than 1/4" plywood, so I decided to use that for the backs as well. One of the cabinets is an island, so I was going to use the full thickness regardless.

FYI, 3/4" cabinet-grade plywood here costs about $80/sheet, with 1/4" costing about $40-45 a sheet. I got a bunch of sheets of birch plywood at $49/sheet, so I bought up whatever I could carry. Probably doesn't sound like much of a deal, but for here it is!

[Jay Boutwell]

Derek, no if you use 3/4 for the back then there would not need a nail cleat but I would add a horizonal streacher in the back lying flat with the top of the cabinet.  This would give you the ability to use it to attach the additional ply top you add after installation.  Good plywood is expensive and It is always changing day to day.  I normally use a lumber broker to get good deals but then you really have to watch what they try to sell you too. 
 
Derek Gould said:

One other question; I was going to use 3/4" plywood for the backs as well. If I do this, would I need to use a nail cleat?

Where I live (Newfoundland, Canada) we pay a premium for lumber and sheet goods. When I was buying the sheet stock I got a deal on birch G2S 3/4" plywood; it was only about $7 more a sheet than 1/4" plywood, so I decided to use that for the backs as well. One of the cabinets is an island, so I was going to use the full thickness regardless.

FYI, 3/4" cabinet-grade plywood here costs about $80/sheet, with 1/4" costing about $40-45 a sheet. I got a bunch of sheets of birch plywood at $49/sheet, so I bought up whatever I could carry. Probably doesn't sound like much of a deal, but for here it is!