Cabinet hardware always measured in metric? - Kreg Owners' Community2024-03-28T18:07:04Zhttps://kregjig.ning.com/forum/topics/cabinet-hardware-always-measured-in-metric?commentId=2900167%3AComment%3A610812&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHere is something educational…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2014-09-07:2900167:Comment:6496832014-09-07T03:33:37.615ZJay Boutwellhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/JayBoutwell
<p>Here is something educational: As you can see I have written a lot about European hinges and how to figure them for overlay and their use.</p>
<p>Today I had a new customer come into the shop with a cabinet door of which has some hinge problem. The hinges were installed using the dowel system and the dowels were pulling out of the door causing the doors to fall off.</p>
<p>The person informed me that he had his kitchen built recently and he has been having problems with door and how the…</p>
<p>Here is something educational: As you can see I have written a lot about European hinges and how to figure them for overlay and their use.</p>
<p>Today I had a new customer come into the shop with a cabinet door of which has some hinge problem. The hinges were installed using the dowel system and the dowels were pulling out of the door causing the doors to fall off.</p>
<p>The person informed me that he had his kitchen built recently and he has been having problems with door and how the door were opening and closing saying that the doors were coming off the cabinets. He tells me that the cabinet shop that did the job is not out of business as of about a month ago.</p>
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<p>I took a look at the problem removing the hinges and noting the following: The hinge cup hole should be a 35mm and that is very close to a 1 3/8 dia bit. The dowel hole which is a 8mm bit should be spread as an equal distance in the door frame and should have the same door edge reveal of near 1/8 of an inch. All the holes need to be bored at a perfect 90 degree to the door frame surface.</p>
<p>This is what I have found: The 35 mm hole was drilled with a off centered bit resulting in a oblong hole. The dowel holes were drilled crooked both inward and outward to the door edge. The results would be a hinge that would seat into the hole but had travel room but the dowel holes would not allow the hinges to mount flush with the door surface. As you will see in the attached photos the hinges is protruding upward and is bent from the attempt to secure it in its mounting hole. </p>
<p>As with everything else hinges and styles are changing and this is why I stated in my discussions that I never use the dowel system. It is impossible to drill all three holes as exactly the correct spot on a door using a drill press or hand drill. The cup hole is easily drilled with the drill press and a jig as I have previously discussed however it take a special jig that mounts all three drill bits at the same time. That means a drill head that has the 35 mm boring bit for the cup and two 8 mm bits for the dowel holes. There portable ones of which work but are expensive. I do not use the dowel hinge as there is too much of a chance to have problems and problems is something you do not want to have and especially in the doors as that is like the flowers on a prom dates dress. You can have a perfect cabinet and face frame and lousy doors and you have just shot your self in the foot.</p>
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<p>In this case the change is in the dowel system. They are the new "salice" brand hinge but has dowels that must have the dowel holes perfectly spaced and correctly drilled. You should push the hinge into the hinge cup as the same time as the two dowel and then holding them securely into place turn a screw 1/4 turn to move the dowel into a locked position within the dowel hole, In the installation or this job I could see where the hinge was hammered on bending some to the mechanical movement of the hinge and then in an attempt to seat the hinge. Then to tighten the hinge they used a drill driver to continued to turn the dowel screw until the dowel worn down and in the process drilled out the holes leaving the hinge worthless. </p>
<p>In talking with the gentleman he informs me that there are better that 1/2 of the doors that have loose hinges and since he tells me this I expect that all of them are that way. That means that there are a total of 57 hinges on the doors (2 one each door and 3 doors have 3 hinges) That means he will need to buy 57 hinges. The only way to fix the doors short of rebuilding he doors it to install a total of 114 dowels that are wood and glued into place and then cut off flush and new hinges installed using the screw. Expensive fix I would say and a reason to be careful in building doors and installing European hinged. Another good reason to stay away from new types of hinges and use the time proven screw installations.</p>
<p>The below link is to the photos of the hinges and door. Play large screen by clicking onto the icon on lower left and exit back to small screen using your key board "ESC" button.</p>
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<p><a href="http://www.smilebox.com/playBlog/4e4445784f4451324f54413d0d0a&blogview=true">http://www.smilebox.com/playBlog/4e4445784f4451324f54413d0d0a&blogview=true</a></p>
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<p></p> Jay, thanks so much, apprecia…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2014-04-16:2900167:Comment:6139072014-04-16T13:01:18.812ZRickhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/Rick98
Jay, thanks so much, appreciate all the time you spend to help us out.
Jay, thanks so much, appreciate all the time you spend to help us out. Hi Rick, reference to the 5 &…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2014-04-16:2900167:Comment:6138902014-04-16T04:01:00.494ZJay Boutwellhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/JayBoutwell
<p>Hi Rick, reference to the 5 &15/16 Inch long length of block, You are correct. That is it's function. It locates the jig under the drill bit setting both it relationship to the side to side of the door and the distance from the edge of the door. Thr results allows you to rapidly bore the hinge cups to be identical at 3 inch centers from each ends of the door and at 1/8 inch from the edge. It is just like you were trying to mark a door witht he cross hair method only it does this…</p>
<p>Hi Rick, reference to the 5 &15/16 Inch long length of block, You are correct. That is it's function. It locates the jig under the drill bit setting both it relationship to the side to side of the door and the distance from the edge of the door. Thr results allows you to rapidly bore the hinge cups to be identical at 3 inch centers from each ends of the door and at 1/8 inch from the edge. It is just like you were trying to mark a door witht he cross hair method only it does this rapidly and accurate from hole to hole each time.You are correct in it be a industy standard as I came up with these measurents after boring many doors using the metric demensions that the hinge companies give you in directions. I found that this was ideal measurments that worked on most common door hinge configerations. There are time when you need to alter the 3 inch mark to fit some special hinge to cabinet configeration such as some lazy susan applications where some hinge type will need to be raised up higher. A situation would be where you are placing the large 360 degree hinge on the door as it will hit the bottom tray of the susan is bored at the 3 inch point. Another is in situations where the hinge will hit a pull out tray and often in things like pantrys where you use the large hinge and install a pull out that has a tray side/front that is taller than about 1 1/2 inches. In these cases I will raise the hinge point on the bottom and simply mark it at point where it will clear the hinge and raise the end stops a place it against the long bopdy of the jig lining it up with the mark that I mentioned in the above post. (center mark of the long part "A". That will allow the measurments to still be accurate even if you bore multiple number of doors.</p>
<p>You will have to pay attention that you are boring the lower hinge cup when you bore multi doors applications.</p>
<p>The lesson here is to know what hardware or components that will placed in the cabinet before you begin boring the doors for cabinets.</p>
<p>In answer to your question about hinging the guage block to the jig frame. You could do this providing that you have room at the back of the drill press and do not use the 25 mm hinge as well as the 35mm hinge. I do both and there fore I have made a duplicate in the guage block witht he exception that I bore a 25mm hole. In setting the jig to the drill press you need to use the correct hinge boring bit and use that once it is inserted and locked in the drill press.</p>
<p>You could also build the jig on a seperate large piece of plywood which would enable you to use the smaller drill press table. This would work well for the small drill press table. The only requirement in this jig would be the ability of setting it accurately up under the drill bit. The guae block does this so the size of the table does not matter. The large table would enable you to bore accurate holes on a small drill press.</p>
<p>Something I did not mention in the prior post it the imprortance of making sure the hinge arms are set accurately at 90 degrees to the door edge. A hinge that is cocked in the door once anchored with the attachmnent screws does not work well when it is mounted to the mounting plate on the cabinet. The simple was to to this it to use a long blade Tee square and lay the tee square on the doot top or bottom and run the blade up against the hinge cup frame, then using a vixs bit bore the screw hole into the door stile.<br/> <br/> <cite>Rick said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://kregjig.ning.com/forum/topics/cabinet-hardware-always-measured-in-metric?commentId=2900167%3AComment%3A613801&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2900167Comment613801"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Jay, I'm following along with keen interest since I had so much trouble locating the cup holes on my first doors I made.</p>
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<p>Am I right that you are using the 5-15/16 long block to locate the jig with respect to the drill press table?</p>
<p>What if the block was also hinged to the jig? That way the entire jig assembly is easily oriented to the 35mm drill bit without the chance for movement. Just the fact that these two parts of the jig are loose opens the door for error. The hardest thing for me to do was hold my jig (not like yours) in place while I tried to clamp it. It's difficult to align the forstner bit point with my cross hairs as I made fine adjustments holding the jig to the table with a couple c-clamps.</p>
<p>Since my drill press table is so small (less than 8x8 inch) and difficult to adjust, what if the entire jig was also mounted to a large piece of flat plywood (like 12 x 24 inch). That way the doors have more support while I drill them, and do not get scratched by the metal table.</p>
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<p>Jay, am I onto something here, or am I missing something as usual? Also, is that 3 inch dimension like an industry standard?</p>
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</blockquote> Jay, I'm following along with…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2014-04-16:2900167:Comment:6138012014-04-16T02:37:27.368ZRickhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/Rick98
<p>Jay, I'm following along with keen interest since I had so much trouble locating the cup holes on my first doors I made.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Am I right that you are using the 5-15/16 long block to locate the jig with respect to the drill press table?</p>
<p>What if the block was also hinged to the jig? That way the entire jig assembly is easily oriented to the 35mm drill bit without the chance for movement. Just the fact that these two parts of the jig are loose opens the door for error. The…</p>
<p>Jay, I'm following along with keen interest since I had so much trouble locating the cup holes on my first doors I made.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Am I right that you are using the 5-15/16 long block to locate the jig with respect to the drill press table?</p>
<p>What if the block was also hinged to the jig? That way the entire jig assembly is easily oriented to the 35mm drill bit without the chance for movement. Just the fact that these two parts of the jig are loose opens the door for error. The hardest thing for me to do was hold my jig (not like yours) in place while I tried to clamp it. It's difficult to align the forstner bit point with my cross hairs as I made fine adjustments holding the jig to the table with a couple c-clamps.</p>
<p>Since my drill press table is so small (less than 8x8 inch) and difficult to adjust, what if the entire jig was also mounted to a large piece of flat plywood (like 12 x 24 inch). That way the doors have more support while I drill them, and do not get scratched by the metal table.</p>
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<p>Jay, am I onto something here, or am I missing something as usual? Also, is that 3 inch dimension like an industry standard?</p> These are all good suggestion…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2014-04-15:2900167:Comment:6139712014-04-15T20:39:58.784ZTim Hadawayhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/TimHadaway
<p>These are all good suggestions Ken. I have one of those little portable things that turns your drill into a drill press, and it works pretty well for now. I have drilled tons of practice holes with it building the cornhole boards. I did drill some practice holes this morning on some scrap maple. The hinges fit perfectly. I was worried about the tip coming through the front of the doors, then I remembered.....this is 4/4 and has not been planed down...so I should be good there too.</p>
<p>These are all good suggestions Ken. I have one of those little portable things that turns your drill into a drill press, and it works pretty well for now. I have drilled tons of practice holes with it building the cornhole boards. I did drill some practice holes this morning on some scrap maple. The hinges fit perfectly. I was worried about the tip coming through the front of the doors, then I remembered.....this is 4/4 and has not been planed down...so I should be good there too.</p> Tim,
With a suitable jig, the…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2014-04-15:2900167:Comment:6137272014-04-15T12:46:42.629ZKen Dargahttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/KenDarga
<p>Tim,</p>
<p>With a suitable jig, the holes can be drilled using a hand drill,</p>
<p>that is orientated 90 degrees to the work-piece surface.</p>
<p>Place a drilling depth mark on your drill bit.</p>
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<p>I've performs such drilling tasks, before having a drill press. </p>
<p>Many times, such holes have to be drilled on the job site.</p>
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<p><strong>TIP</strong>: Drill practice holes on scrap pieces of wood.</p>
<p>Make several practice holes, ''til you're comfortable with the…</p>
<p>Tim,</p>
<p>With a suitable jig, the holes can be drilled using a hand drill,</p>
<p>that is orientated 90 degrees to the work-piece surface.</p>
<p>Place a drilling depth mark on your drill bit.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I've performs such drilling tasks, before having a drill press. </p>
<p>Many times, such holes have to be drilled on the job site.</p>
<p></p>
<p><strong>TIP</strong>: Drill practice holes on scrap pieces of wood.</p>
<p>Make several practice holes, ''til you're comfortable with the results.</p>
<p>Go slow, 'til you get the hang of it.</p>
<p>Place the hinge in the drilled hole, to check your results.</p>
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<p>Use a speed square, or the like, standing on end, so as to align the drill vertically, and eyeball it.</p>
<p>Two such squares can be positioned 90 degrees to each other---each oriented in the vertical plane.</p>
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<p>Can you mount (glue) a round center leveling bubble on the back your drill? This also helps.</p>
<p>Insert a 3/8" x 12" dowel rod in your drill chuck. Orientate the drill 90 degrees in both planes---secure the drill in this position and mount the bubble to the head of the drill.</p>
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<p>If you should need additional info, please do not hesitate to contact me.</p>
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<p>Good luck.</p> I love the jig. I will be bui…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2014-04-10:2900167:Comment:6110752014-04-10T12:41:40.230ZTim Hadawayhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/TimHadaway
<p>I love the jig. I will be building one of those. I have some soft maple lying around somewhere that would love to be used. My only problem is that I don't have, or have access to a drill press. I do have one of those cheap little things that supposedly turns your hand drill into a drill press.....LOL.....it does OK, and I have had success making straight holes with that. I guess I will have to be cheap for now and continue with that thing.....I may could find something reasonable on…</p>
<p>I love the jig. I will be building one of those. I have some soft maple lying around somewhere that would love to be used. My only problem is that I don't have, or have access to a drill press. I do have one of those cheap little things that supposedly turns your hand drill into a drill press.....LOL.....it does OK, and I have had success making straight holes with that. I guess I will have to be cheap for now and continue with that thing.....I may could find something reasonable on Craigslist.....I will start looking. Really need a bandsaw more.</p> Jay, great explanation and pi…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2014-04-10:2900167:Comment:6108272014-04-10T02:12:41.130ZKen Dargahttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/KenDarga
<p>Jay, great explanation and pics.</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing.</p>
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<p>Jay, great explanation and pics.</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing.</p>
<p></p> tag:kregjig.ning.com,2014-04-09:2900167:Comment:6106512014-04-09T20:35:25.318ZJay Boutwellhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/JayBoutwell
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1935470411?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="721" class="align-center" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1935470411?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a></p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1935470411?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="721" class="align-center" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1935470411?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a></p> European Hinges jig continued:tag:kregjig.ning.com,2014-04-09:2900167:Comment:6108142014-04-09T20:30:32.671ZJay Boutwellhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/JayBoutwell
<p>European Hinges jig continued:<a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1935470445?profile=original" target="_self"><img style="width: 686px;" class="align-center" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1935470445?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721" height="540"/></a></p>
<p>European Hinges jig continued:<a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1935470445?profile=original" target="_self"><img style="width: 686px;" class="align-center" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1935470445?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721" height="540"/></a></p>