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Which is the better choice, the 3" or the 5" blade stabilizer?  Appreciate any insight. 

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Stephanie,

I use a 3" dia size stabilizer, when using thin kerf blades on my table saws.

I obtained it from Rockler Woodworking & Tools.

A 5" is too large for my 10" saw.  If I used it, I would only have an effective cutting depth of 2-1/4", and less if the blade is tilted 45 degrees.

Without a stabilizer, when using thin kerf blades, I get about a 1/16" wobble, until the blades reaches full rpm.

I don't have the wobble issues with thicker plate saw blades.

PS---I also use the stabilizers when I use 7-1/4" thin blades on my table saws.

Stephanie, I use the stabilizers continually, running a 6 inch dia " forrest" brand stabilizer against "forrest" brand blades when I am doing a lot of plywood cut off and rips at 90 degrees.  I have found that I get a better cut and especially in melamine sheets.  There is less chip out as the stabilizer is close to the teeth of the blade and thus making the blade much stiffer as well as running cooler.  The stabilizer acts like a heat sink.  When I start making cuts in miters and or blade tilted cuts I change down to a smaller stabilizer which is a 4 inch dia. 

When using any type of stabilizer you will always have to keep in mind that the cutting depth is not as great and remember to be sure never to raise the blade too high as it will hit the bottom of most inserts unless it is an extra wide insert similar to a dado blade insert.  If using a wide insert a person should consider using a smaller width insert as it will improve your blade cuts .  I use a lot of my own cut inserts and run a lot of zero clearance inserts.

I never use the thin kerf blades for the reason as that are more flexible and even with a stabilizer do not cut as clean and true as a standard 1/8" kerf.   If you have your fence set up for use with 1/8" blades you are always having to adjust to make the thin kerf blade cut at exact "zero"  The only reason that I can see where the thin kerf blades help is on a small under powered saw where you simply do not have the power to turn a full 1/8" kerf blade.  That being the case expect to find yourcuts to suffer from the lack of stability of the blade.   

I have the Ridgid 4512.  I would guess that not enough power is not the issue.  So you are saying that buying the thin kerf blades has no benefit?  It seems this problem did not start until after I bought and installed one.  I bought Freud blades and thought I needed the thin kerf based on what I was reading.  But you do use a stabilizer with standard blades?  I just want to make sure I understand you right.  I want to solve this problem of the blade burning the wood so I can get moving with the projects I have coming up.
 
Jay Boutwell said:

Stephanie, I use the stabilizers continually, running a 6 inch dia " forrest" brand stabilizer against "forrest" brand blades when I am doing a lot of plywood cut off and rips at 90 degrees.  I have found that I get a better cut and especially in melamine sheets.  There is less chip out as the stabilizer is close to the teeth of the blade and thus making the blade much stiffer as well as running cooler.  The stabilizer acts like a heat sink.  When I start making cuts in miters and or blade tilted cuts I change down to a smaller stabilizer which is a 4 inch dia. 

When using any type of stabilizer you will always have to keep in mind that the cutting depth is not as great and remember to be sure never to raise the blade too high as it will hit the bottom of most inserts unless it is an extra wide insert similar to a dado blade insert.  If using a wide insert a person should consider using a smaller width insert as it will improve your blade cuts .  I use a lot of my own cut inserts and run a lot of zero clearance inserts.

I never use the thin kerf blades for the reason as that are more flexible and even with a stabilizer do not cut as clean and true as a standard 1/8" kerf.   If you have your fence set up for use with 1/8" blades you are always having to adjust to make the thin kerf blade cut at exact "zero"  The only reason that I can see where the thin kerf blades help is on a small under powered saw where you simply do not have the power to turn a full 1/8" kerf blade.  That being the case expect to find yourcuts to suffer from the lack of stability of the blade.   

Stephanie, in answer to your question, yes I run the stabilizer on 1/8" kerf saw blades and I do not run any thin kerf blades,  There is no advantage of running them as they have more flex than the 1/8" kerf blades.  Like I explained the only advantage of the thin kerf in on the lower powered saws as it is like a step up in power because you are not cutting as much material in the small kerf putting less drag on the blade.

Sure they advertise them as saving wood but in reality how much wood are the saving in the thin kerf blade? the average thickness of the thin kerf blades is about 3/32 less than the standard kerf blade so that amount is not going to be enough to sacrifice the down falls of now much more flexible it is and the results of it giving you a less quality of cuts.  Like I explained the saw blade is like a heat sink as it absorbs heat which is the enemy to most things in cutting.  The heat of the friction of the blade cutting material generated extreme heat of which is then introduced to the material you are cutting and is sometimes the cause of burned wood.

The stabilizer is another way of increasing the heat sink size and the ability to cause the saw blade to run cooler for a longer period of time as well as reducing the flexing of the blade as it cuts.  The flexing of the blade causes heat as it is bouncing back and forth in the saw kerf and the flex is also the cause of the vibrations you experience.  The stabilizer reduces the amount that the blade can flex and absorbs vibrations that are made.  The smaller the saw the more pronounced will be the vibrations as the heavier saw frame will also act much like the stabilizer as it introduces more mass metal to absorb any vibration caused by  the ailments of a saw.

I think your problem is caused by either a bad blade that may not be balance and or is actually bent in relationship of the flat plane of the blade plate and the boring of the mounting hole.  The other cause may be that at the mounting of the blade is hampered by something between the blade and the trunion flange like maybe some packed sawdust and or wood chips.  I would remove the blade and replace it with another one and see if it fixes the problem and stay away from the thin kerf blades.  As a rule you will have more problems with a thin kerf blade that you will with a thicker blade.  Your saw will perform much better as it will reduce the  ability of the blade to flex by a large percentage.

The wobble you see in the blade should be eliminated as much as possible as the rim speed of a 10 inch dia blade is upwards of 100 mph and generated a lot of force that will not only make cutting difficult and horrible but is very dangerous.  The run out on a table saw blade should be kept to as close as possible to "Zero" as possible.   As I said I use "Forrest" brand blades as that are the best that I have found to being perfect to zero .  The rub out of my saw with a new blade is between .002 and .004 inches,   (run out is the wobble you are seeing as it rotates)  As you use the saw blade you will see its run out become more and more as the heat that the blade has experienced will cause the blade to change in it flatness.  Another reason to use the thicker blade as it takes more heat than the thin blade to cause a change in the blade flatness.

Something to consider is that a good blade will make a bad saw perform better but a bad blade will make a great highly tuned saw a horrible saw.  This means that you will have to spend some money to get a good blade.  Something I will also add here when talking about blades is that they make blades for all kinds of woodwork and in reality it is like a marketing scheme of which a person who buys a good blade does not need to buy one for plywood and another one for ripping and another one for finishing.

I have been working wood as a profession now for going on 28 years and for all of these years I have used the same saw blade which is a 10 inch 40 tooth combination blade of which I rip, cross cut, and finish all types of wood  with out any problems.  In fact I seldom will use a jointer with the exception of removing a bow in a piece of wood, and I glue up right off my table saw cuts.  It does not mean only a certain wood, as I have had the same experience in about every hard wood there is as well as the soft woods from pine to the common plywood's and even melamine. 

True I have a super fine tuned saw and use good sharp blades an accurate fence and practice good sawing methods but I have saved a pile of money from not having to buy all these fancy blades.  I own a dozen or so combination blades so I always have a good flat blade of which is sharpened by company that will grind and flatten the saw blade plate and then straighten and certify that the blade is save meaning there is no cracks and or defects in either the plate of the carbide teeth and that the blade is balanced.  Then when I mount the blade to the saw arbor I check its run out with a dile indicator to be certain that everything will be running true.

If interested I have written and posted several articles in the past about table saw set up and tune up and safety.  You can find them by using the search in the upper right hand corner of the kreg community.  One was written and posted on May 21, 2011 and deals with tuning up a table saw.  Type in "table saw tune up" and it should be available. 
 
Stephanie H said:

I have the Ridgid 4512.  I would guess that not enough power is not the issue.  So you are saying that buying the thin kerf blades has no benefit?  It seems this problem did not start until after I bought and installed one.  I bought Freud blades and thought I needed the thin kerf based on what I was reading.  But you do use a stabilizer with standard blades?  I just want to make sure I understand you right.  I want to solve this problem of the blade burning the wood so I can get moving with the projects I have coming up.
 
Jay Boutwell said:

Stephanie, I use the stabilizers continually, running a 6 inch dia " forrest" brand stabilizer against "forrest" brand blades when I am doing a lot of plywood cut off and rips at 90 degrees.  I have found that I get a better cut and especially in melamine sheets.  There is less chip out as the stabilizer is close to the teeth of the blade and thus making the blade much stiffer as well as running cooler.  The stabilizer acts like a heat sink.  When I start making cuts in miters and or blade tilted cuts I change down to a smaller stabilizer which is a 4 inch dia. 

When using any type of stabilizer you will always have to keep in mind that the cutting depth is not as great and remember to be sure never to raise the blade too high as it will hit the bottom of most inserts unless it is an extra wide insert similar to a dado blade insert.  If using a wide insert a person should consider using a smaller width insert as it will improve your blade cuts .  I use a lot of my own cut inserts and run a lot of zero clearance inserts.

I never use the thin kerf blades for the reason as that are more flexible and even with a stabilizer do not cut as clean and true as a standard 1/8" kerf.   If you have your fence set up for use with 1/8" blades you are always having to adjust to make the thin kerf blade cut at exact "zero"  The only reason that I can see where the thin kerf blades help is on a small under powered saw where you simply do not have the power to turn a full 1/8" kerf blade.  That being the case expect to find yourcuts to suffer from the lack of stability of the blade.   

Stephanie, here is the tune up article that might be of interest to you. 

 on July 24, 2012

Comment on: Topic 'Table Saw Tune Up'
For over 20 years and have all my fingers and so far have not had an accident.  I credit this not as luck but because of thinking safety.  Part of this safety is working with properly adjusted tools.  I posted this article over a year ago.  Perhaps you will find something of value in it that makes your interest in woodworking a safe and happy experience.  This was in response to a discussion by fellow member Mike Hugh and was about saws:   Reply by Jay Boutwell on May 21, 2011 at 11:54am Mike, Hugh is very correct in his comment above. Not only is the improperly adjusted saw dangerous but it is not accurate unless the trunnion is correctly adjusted and running free of wobble or slop in the bearings.  Trunnion adjustment is the first thing you need to do to set up an accurate and safe saw.  The trunnion bearings must be tight and smooth in the trunnion housing to perform correctly.  The saw arbor shaft facing (saw blade rests against this in order to tighten with nut) must be at an absolute 90 degrees to the shaft.  The arbor shaft must also run true without wobble meaning that it must be absolute straight and allows no runout out as the shaft spins.  The trunnion housing must be adjusted so that it is 90 degrees to the saw table surface and set so it is square to the miter guide track from the front of the table and extending all along the length of the miter track.   I do this using the guide track on the left side of the blade since i use the left side of the table for all my accurate cuts including my most accurate saw sled.  ( I have several I use depending on what I am doing)  To square the table with the track guides move the table on its mountings and adjust the trunnion to the table for the 90 degree to the table top (vertical) use shims.  All mounting bolts must be of a grade high enough to with stand the pressure generated in the saws operation.  The most critical is the trunnion mounting bolts.  In trunnions the best is the ones with ball bearings are superior to the bronze bushings type found in the cheaper saws.  Once you have the trunnion and table set correctly this is the time to set the miter scale on the saw. Once the table and trunion are adjusted check the opposite miter track against the trunnion and table settings you have established.  These should match without changing any of your prior adjustments. If they do not match then the difference is the inaccurate maching of the table top and will never be an accurate saw using both miter tracks without making adjustments to that track or the tooling using that track.   If it is off too much then dump the saw for a better one.  It can be used however avoid using the inaccurate miter slide unless you make adjustments to the tooling used in that track. This is why i set up my saw using the side I will use most for my accurate work.  Another reason that I use a sled with only one slide bar.  Another reason to have a inaccurate saw when using the miter tracks is if they are loose and sloppy to the slide bars used on either a miter guage or on other device used to slide a piece of wood past a saw blade. Accurace cuts will also demand a quality saw blade of which will remain true even after long cuts in heavy tough material and after continious runs of several minutes without stopping the saw.  A reason that I use the 1/8" thick blades and most often the 40 tooth combination blade.  Heat causes metal movement and the more metal there the more heat it will take before making a radical change.  I also use a blade viberation dampener to reduce the viberations from heavy cutting. The dampners also absorb more heat from the blade.   It is of importance to have and maintain a sharp blade as it greatly improves the all around performance of the cutting.  A tough and jagged cut will become more like a smooth easily cut piece.  Less wear and tear on both the saw and the operator and it will greatly improve the safety of a saw.  Simply put, the more force you have to use on any object the more apt you are to do damage to your self in the event of a sudden change of cutting action.  imagine a crack you didn't see causes the lumber to suddenly explode or a knot suddenly decides to attemtp to flee the saw blade and the once knot there now is a void and you loose control and into the blade you go. The next important thing in saw preperation is the alinement of the drive system.  The alinement must be set so that the drive pulleys are running true without runout and must be square to the drive motor and trunnion.   The motor must be securely tightened to the mounting and have enough power to operate the saw without bogging down. If multiple belts are used in the drive system then matched belts should be used and replace as a set. Hugh is again right about the fence cutting accurate even if the blade is not true to the miter tracks.  Since it is supported by the table top it should be the last thing to adjust.   If the table top is alined properly to the blade trunnion assembly the saw will cut accurately and to cut accurately with the fence the fence must be set up using the settings from the blade and trunnion.  This meaning the alinement at 90 degrees to the blade and then kick the rear of the fence open about .002" to allow the material to freely pass the blade without pinching and closing against the blade.  Here again is another safety issue of which every saw doing a ripping of lumber needs a properly alined splitter securely attached to rear of the saw.  This is important feature to prevent the squeezing of lumber against the blade causing kickbacks and also burning of the lumber against the blade.                    (Continued table saw accuracy) Of importance in saw fences never use one of which does not lock firmly each time it is moved and locked.  It must be a ridgid and a strong fence and high enough that material will not climb over it during a cut.  Once the fence is accurately so that it slides square to the blade trunnion that its scale should be adjusted.  Once all this is considered and addressed then you should have a saw that will cut accurately and safely.  About a month ago i posted comments about how I made my table saw accurate and safe to use.  In that post I talked about using a nickel when I set up and tuned my saw .  It is also my test to insure that nothing has changed in my saw from earlier use.  I do this almost daily before I start up the saw.  I know from experience that any change in a saw can be detected by the vibrations that it produces.  It might be small enough that sounds do not come from the saw and the saw will not always jump up and down so standing a nickel on its side with a running saw will test it for you.  If that nickel will stand on its edge you have a finely tuned saw and one you can cut with without fear of accidents from a failure of a saw part. In this post I have talked about trunnions and arbors.  I did not address the direct drive saws.  The main difference is that a direct drive saw does not have a trunnion so to speak as the motor assemble is the trunnion and should be adjusted using pretty much the same type of thinking.  I know they can not be fine tuned to perform like the big cabinet and heavier saws but can be improved in performance and safety using some of the same method I have discussed above.  One of the additional items to consider is making sure the smaller saw is fastened down enough to prevent it from moving while in use.  Alot of force is put against the saw when pushing lumber through and a little movement can often lead to a accident. Other safety measures to consider is checking the saw blade for missing and bent teeth, bent or cracked blade bodies as well as tightness of the blade to the arbor.  Check the fence for locking simply by moving the fence to a couple different location and locking it down and giving it a quick bump with the hand.  Checking the on off switch and the other safety devices to insure that they work correctly.  Keep the saw table clear of other items including tape measures screw drivers and other tools.  Accidents happen by simple things like a stray nail or screw laying on the saw or even near the saw.  Another item often over looked in table saw safety is the saw blade inserts for the table.  Using a loose fitting insert is asking for trouble, using a datto insert on a standard saw blade is dangerous as well.  Cutting lumber without eye protection is another item of necessity if you want to remain seeing with both eyes. Firm footing and secure fitting shirt sleeves and clothing is another item often neglected as well as standing directly behind the blade is dangerous. Another safety item is working on a saw while it is still plugged in is double dangerous.  Avoid alcoholic beverages as well as working with a saw while tired and or on medications.  Avoid any distractions when sawing might keep your self or others safe . Maybe I get carried away with all this but I have has the misfortune of having to be involved in the investigation of a death caused by a table saw.  This has been years ago and I still see the blood every time I turn on the saw. This death was caused by carless operation of the normal innocent looking home type table saw.  Remember a saw is only as safe as you make it be.  PLEASE !!!! think and work safe before you flip that switch..........  

I think I have been a victim of being suckered into thinking I need different saw blades.  I just wanted something great for plywood.  I hate how the ends get all chewed up.  I also bought a zero clearance plate that I am guessing is worthless now that I cut it using the thin kerf.  I need to learn how to make my own.  Buying that one, although it is nice looking, is probably junk now.  Live and learn I suppose.  I should have started here and asked questions.  You guys are all so smart and helpful with all of the combined years of experience you have.  I always appreciate the information, even if sometimes I don't like the answer...when it means a costly mistake  :)    Being new to this and I love making things with wood.  But I am a beginner for sure and always learning new things, along with new mistakes.  I just bought a planer and LOVE it.  I think I now have most of what I need in my garage/shop to do most things I want.  Other than you can never have enough clamps.  Just bought some bandy clamps...wow those are nice! 

Stephanie,

There are many saw blades on the market.

Peruse the Freud and Diablo saw blades, and familarize yourself with the various types, and their intended use.

I've found they offer very helpful info, about saw blades.

http://www.freudtools.com/index.php/products

http://www.diablotools.com/

Stephanie, You can still use the zero insert just recut it with the large kerf blade.  I read your question about how to determine if your blade is bent.  The only real accurate way is to use a dial indicator mounted to the table of your saw,  Mount it and set the dial plunger against the blade and zero out the dial  The rotate the blade by hand and watch the run out.  this will also read any run out in the mounting arbor but if the original blade works alright then the arbor is most likely ok.  You can get a cheap dial indicator that would work for general saw set up at Harbor freight.  They are not highly accurate in machinist work but ok in woodworking.

it is true that a blade can cause tear out in plywood but it you are buying you material from the big box stores in this area they are getting the cheap imported plywood that is very hard to work with.  The veneers are very thin and even the plies de-laminate. I know that you are getting the same quality of wood that is available as you live in the same area as I do.  You have a good source of plywood just across the river which is Woodcrafters at 6th and Davis in Portland.  I buy most of mine from hardwood industries in Sherwood, Oregon.  It is more pricey but the results are good. 

I am sure if you check out your saw for alignment and get a good blade you will find a world of difference in how your saw performs.    Let me know if I can be of any help . 
 
Stephanie H said:

I think I have been a victim of being suckered into thinking I need different saw blades.  I just wanted something great for plywood.  I hate how the ends get all chewed up.  I also bought a zero clearance plate that I am guessing is worthless now that I cut it using the thin kerf.  I need to learn how to make my own.  Buying that one, although it is nice looking, is probably junk now.  Live and learn I suppose.  I should have started here and asked questions.  You guys are all so smart and helpful with all of the combined years of experience you have.  I always appreciate the information, even if sometimes I don't like the answer...when it means a costly mistake  :)    Being new to this and I love making things with wood.  But I am a beginner for sure and always learning new things, along with new mistakes.  I just bought a planer and LOVE it.  I think I now have most of what I need in my garage/shop to do most things I want.  Other than you can never have enough clamps.  Just bought some bandy clamps...wow those are nice! 

Dang, I thought it was toast.  I will do that this morning when I get started.  I buy my wood from Shurway.  I try to stay away from those big box stores as we call them, without saying the name.  Unless Shurway is closed and I am in dire need will I go there.  But I do try to plan ahead as much as possible.  Funny thing, I did just buy a digital indicator from HF.  Just need to make a t-brace for it.  They don't make one for it and I had bought the "Multi-Position Magnetic Base with Fine Adjustment" and took it back.  Found it would only work with my table saw.  Everything else I have, has a non-metal base.

I use a 5" most of the time unless I need a deep cut  and it makes my grizzly a lot less noisey

try covering your cut line with tape it will stop a lot of tear out it  duct tape makes a great zero clearance plate in a pinch

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