Building and Installing Cabinets - Kreg Owners' Community2024-03-28T19:46:56Zhttps://kregjig.ning.com/forum/topics/building-and-installing-cabinets?feed=yes&xn_auth=noHi Frank, It would be a long…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2015-04-22:2900167:Comment:7275062015-04-22T05:08:14.478ZJay Boutwellhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/JayBoutwell
<p>Hi Frank, It would be a long proceedure and in fact I have used similialr methods during my time building cabients as a profession and have done many different types of builds. It is a method of which I seldom found a need for as I have no problem just picking you the cabinet and setting it into place. The problem that I see with your method is that it places all the weight on a small diamater of which will sink into some floors over time. The use of wooden shims works well as it is fast…</p>
<p>Hi Frank, It would be a long proceedure and in fact I have used similialr methods during my time building cabients as a profession and have done many different types of builds. It is a method of which I seldom found a need for as I have no problem just picking you the cabinet and setting it into place. The problem that I see with your method is that it places all the weight on a small diamater of which will sink into some floors over time. The use of wooden shims works well as it is fast and accurate and does distributes the cabinet's weight over a larger area than a small diameter of a bolt head. </p>
<p>There is a system similiar to what you are discribing of which uses legs that are adjustable down from the cabient floor and found in some of the pre-made European cabienet of which yoiu set in place a level them to the proper height by extending and retracting the legs height. Expensive and did actually nothing to speed up and or make the job of installing cabinets.</p>
<p>Another method of which I have used is to build a seperate toe kick assembly seperate from the cabinet box and set the toe kicks into place first and make the tops level making the adjustment using both shims and also by shaving the toe kicks to fit the uneven floors. i only do this when the floor is very much out of level and requires an extream measure to get the cabinets level. In some cases that allows me to add material between the cabinet box and the toe kick. In cases like this the use of a seperate toe kick that is prefinished is then glued and pin nailed to the toe kick. This is done after the toe kick are inplace and just before sitting the cabient boxes onto the toe kick frame. Anything that I can't fix with this method then the floors should be leveled before any cabinets are placed on the floor.</p>
<p>Once this is done it is a simple process to sit the boxes onto the toe kick and screw them into place screwing them to the base and to the wall studs and then together to make a firm base for a counter top of choice.</p>
<p> There is not the danger like hanging a upper cabient up on a wall that I wrote above in my post. They are either out of level and or out of plumb and is either is wrong will have to be corrected to remedy the ailments.</p>
<p>You idea would work but not practicle for what I have been doing. Every cabinet install is different and that is why I suggested a visit to the location of the cabient installation when possible before the build as it can aid you in the final installation. You can build a cabinet to fit many problems and make a cabinet of better quality without having to do so many alterations once at the place of installation. I had rather know about the floor and wall conditions so that I can correct what I can and then build the cabinet to fit without having to go to the extreams as I would had I not known of problems before arrival of the install. That is the beauty of building a true custom cabinet as it is built to fit the walls and floors both in height and width and length and also on what the cabinets are attached to and are sitting on. </p>
<p>I do thank you for your imput as it may give others ideas. </p>
<p><br/><cite>Frank R. Clark said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://kregjig.ning.com/forum/topics/building-and-installing-cabinets?commentId=2900167%3AComment%3A727020&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2900167Comment727020"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>hi, i have started using a method of shimming the base cabinets the is far superior to using wood shims. i reenforce the toe kick area with 2 X 4 material cut to fit inside the toe kick and drill with a forsner bit a 3/4 hole about 1/2 inch deep then use a 1/2 inch brad point bit to drill a 3/4 inch deep hole in the center of the forsner bit hole. i drive a t-nut into the hole and install a bolt into the t-nut .i also put a felt piece over the head of the bolt so it won't mar the floor and you can move the cabinet around with no problems. to adjust height just move the bolt in or out of the nut. i use 3/8 inch bolts about 1 to 1 and 1/2 inch long. sounds like a long procedure to use but it works really well. try it you might like it.</p>
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</blockquote> hi, i have started using a m…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2015-04-21:2900167:Comment:7270202015-04-21T16:15:08.494ZFrank R. Clarkhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/FrankRClark
<p>hi, i have started using a method of shimming the base cabinets the is far superior to using wood shims. i reenforce the toe kick area with 2 X 4 material cut to fit inside the toe kick and drill with a forsner bit a 3/4 hole about 1/2 inch deep then use a 1/2 inch brad point bit to drill a 3/4 inch deep hole in the center of the forsner bit hole. i drive a t-nut into the hole and install a bolt into the t-nut .i also put a felt piece over the head of the bolt so it won't mar the floor…</p>
<p>hi, i have started using a method of shimming the base cabinets the is far superior to using wood shims. i reenforce the toe kick area with 2 X 4 material cut to fit inside the toe kick and drill with a forsner bit a 3/4 hole about 1/2 inch deep then use a 1/2 inch brad point bit to drill a 3/4 inch deep hole in the center of the forsner bit hole. i drive a t-nut into the hole and install a bolt into the t-nut .i also put a felt piece over the head of the bolt so it won't mar the floor and you can move the cabinet around with no problems. to adjust height just move the bolt in or out of the nut. i use 3/8 inch bolts about 1 to 1 and 1/2 inch long. sounds like a long procedure to use but it works really well. try it you might like it.</p> Jay, very good reply , well w…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2015-04-16:2900167:Comment:7257052015-04-16T18:47:12.837Zjames wilhelmhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/jameswilhelm
<p>Jay, very good reply , well written , great details and very easy for any one to under stand !!! Thanks for the information and your help as all ways , JIM !!!</p>
<p>Jay, very good reply , well written , great details and very easy for any one to under stand !!! Thanks for the information and your help as all ways , JIM !!!</p> Jay,
GREAT read.
Very well il…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2015-04-16:2900167:Comment:7258042015-04-16T17:13:12.410ZKen Dargahttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/KenDarga
<p>Jay,</p>
<p>GREAT read.</p>
<p>Very well illustrated.</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing your insight. </p>
<p>Jay,</p>
<p>GREAT read.</p>
<p>Very well illustrated.</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing your insight. </p> In response to the question a…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2015-04-16:2900167:Comment:7257972015-04-16T16:34:04.130ZJay Boutwellhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/JayBoutwell
<div>In response to the question about where or not I have photos and or illustrations to show my point better. I can offer a good explanation of the process of how something falls off a wall. I could also offer photos of cabinets that I have build and how I have installed them but the photos actually will not show a lot of detail that I have not already discussed .If I still had the photos that I took at the time it would explain what happened crystal clear. I do not have it in…</div>
<div>In response to the question about where or not I have photos and or illustrations to show my point better. I can offer a good explanation of the process of how something falls off a wall. I could also offer photos of cabinets that I have build and how I have installed them but the photos actually will not show a lot of detail that I have not already discussed .If I still had the photos that I took at the time it would explain what happened crystal clear. I do not have it in a illustrated book however that might be a good thing to think about doing. What I posted is from information that I have learned from practical experience as well and from detailed studying of the works of other cabinet builders. My experience comes from over a quarter of a century in construction not only from building cabinets but also from being involved in many construction phases of new and remodels of older buildings including exposure of and assisting in the repair of fire damaged buildings. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>In this situation of which I posted about, occurred a few years after I left law enforcement as an investigator where my profession exposed me to many different scenarios of construction as an investigator seeing many buildings damaged from criminal actions such as, but not limited to automobiles running into buildings, explosions and arson fires.During this time I also conducted many serious and fatal accident reconstruction. Then adding at that time another 15 years being in the cabinet building and construction trade gives me a good background of which I should be able intelligently build and install cabinets and be able to explain the physics of why something should be done in a certain manner. To clarify as to how I can recall this so well is that I have been gifted with a photographic memory and testified many times in murder cases with out notes. Certain things that I happen upon I recall them just like I was looking at a photograph. This incident certainly left an impression on me as I was involved in the same profession.</div>
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<div>I was called to a residence by the insurance adjuster of the victims insurance who inquired of me as to what my opinion was as to what had happened. I was told that the owner (lady of retirement age) had been injured and will spend some time in the hospital from injuries that she had suffered when the wall of cabinets fell off the wall on on top of her. I was told that the cabinets had been installed by a company that installed cabinet systems for customers a couple days before the incident and was told that it had happened the day prior to me being called.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What I saw was a nice new set of cabinets that had been moved from where they landed by the paramedics in order to remove the victim for medical care. The cabinets were upper cabinets and were around 8 feet in length and about 38 to 40 inches in height ( standard size heights for a 8 foot high ceiling) The tops of the cabinets were damaged more severely than the lower half. The lower cabinets were granite surfaced and the counter top was broken at the front edges in several places. Some of the doors were broken off as well as damaged to the point of ruin.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Looking at the walls I noted several holes that had been made by screws and or nails and looking at the cabinet backs I saw a few broken off screws and noted that they were sheet rock screws and not screws that were manufactured to use in mounting cabinets. Physically checking the wall many of the holes in the sheet rock were just that holes with nothing behind to screw to except insulation. The top of the cabinets were just below the top plate of the walls. The holes in the wall matched the screw holes in the cabinet back. </div>
<div>Looking at the cabinet and the manner of construction I saw no flaws in their construction or material that would have caused them to fall off the wall, meaning cabinet construction or material failure. The amount of weight that was put inside the cabinet was not enough to cause over stress of the cabinet box.</div>
<div>The cabinet had the upper hanging cleat or rail and there was one on the bottom of the cabinet box (outside of the of the bottom that makes the back of the cabinet box the same height as the face frame at the front.) There were a few screws in the bottom cleat as well but most of these were broke off or had simply pulled out of the sheet rock and still intact. ( not screwed into framing)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I explained to the claims adjuster my opinions and explained to him how I believed it happened and did this showing the points why it fell off the wall. I explained that there was insufficient screws properly placed in the cabinet to mount it safely.</div>
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<div>A few months went by and I was contacted again by the insurance adjuster who gave me a subpoena to appear for a deposition about my knowledge and what I had seen at the home.</div>
<div>It finally came down to a civil trial and the insurance agency for the victim hired a civil engineer who did a re-enactment of the incident and filmed it and played it in slow motion at the trial. What I saw in that film showed exactly how I had explained it in court.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Simply put the installers failed to firmly attach the top of the cabinet to the wall missing the framing in most of the screws that they installed. The screws that they were using (sheet rock) were incorrect as they do not have the tensile strength (resistance to pulling and stretching) and were brittle so they lacked sheer resistance. This caused the failure of the cabinet to not remain on the wall. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The re-enactment of of the falling showed the following: As weight was applied to the cabinet it began to pull away from the top. This continued until it pulled totally away from the wall and as it fell the top rotates outward while the bottom remained against the wall. As if finally reached a point of it's downward fall, the bottom of the cabinet now moves upward scrapping the wall. This was when the cabinet was at about a 90 degree angle to the wall. By now the cabinet had already hit the victim knocking her down and the cabinet follows. The cabinet now hits the counter top at the front edge and breaks the granite top and then slides down onto the floor and on top of the victim. During its downward tumble, the doors have opened and dumped the cabinet's contents out of the cabinet and onto the floor and on top of the victim hitting the victim just before or at the same time as the cabinet and sand witched them between the victim and the cabinet and floor</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In simple physics when weight is applied directly on top of a stationary object such as a baton or in this case a few screws in the bottom rail it will remain stable as long as the weight is directly on top of the stationary object. However if you take the same amount of weight and move it outward such as would be on a cabinet shelf, the pressure now become lighter on the stationary object, and begins to add pressure to the top and the pressure is an outward pulling effect. ( physics of leverage) This is why the cabinet begins the fall at the top and not at the bottom. This makes the bottom pivot and when the cabinet does move, it moves upward and not down like most will believe. So this being true the more weight that is put in a cabinet shelves towards the front the more the outward pull at the top will be. It is the same principle as if an object is top heavy it will tip over but it does not tip over from the bottom. The tipping over begins at the top. This is why there was no damage to the back of the counter top and no damage to the bottom of the cabinet. In reality the bottom just rotates and switches from being the bottom to being the top. The cabinet bottom never hits the counter top but slide off on the cabinet face.</div>
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<div>So to sum it up, proper cabinet installation is just as important as cabinet construction. It is hard or impossible to hang a cabinet safely if it is not constructed properly. This is why giving correct information to those out there who do not know is important. Following wrong information can become something that you will regret This is why you should really weight information that you read and or hear before you follow it. Now I have included my experience and back ground and hope you will consider things that people state as being the right way to do something. I guess question the information, Would you go to a doctor that has never had any experience and if so what does his credentials say? Would you ask a person how to build a cabinet door that has never built a cabinet door in his life.</div>
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<div>This incident would never have happened had the cabinet been secured to the wall properly by installing the proper screws and screwing the screws into framing members and installed enough screws. Do not fail to add enough screws into the top hanging rail and as a rule of thumb in each point in the framing that you can. I use 4 inch wide hanging rail in a standard cabinet and increase this as the bigger the cabinet gets. Best to be safe than sorry. Incorrect work can hurt you in many ways. If you recall recently there was discussion about using kreg screws for framing. There is a reason for certain things to apply in construction. Gravity and motion is the ruling factor in most things.</div> Jay thanks for sharing. Great…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2015-04-16:2900167:Comment:7258742015-04-16T11:26:28.900ZBobbyhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/Robert394
<p>Jay thanks for sharing. Great information</p>
<p>Jay thanks for sharing. Great information</p> Good info Jay. Do you have an…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2015-04-16:2900167:Comment:7255402015-04-16T00:42:04.908ZAndy Harrishttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/AndyHarris727
Good info Jay. Do you have any images or illustrations to share which make it easier to visualize some of the points?<br />
<br />
Also Ken I assume you mean my suggestion on the previous posts was "scary" as I was only other person that offered information on what had worked for me. If so then I resent that as it has worked for me and others I know. Apologies if it didn't meet your personal approval.<br />
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Jay thanks for your advice :-)
Good info Jay. Do you have any images or illustrations to share which make it easier to visualize some of the points?<br />
<br />
Also Ken I assume you mean my suggestion on the previous posts was "scary" as I was only other person that offered information on what had worked for me. If so then I resent that as it has worked for me and others I know. Apologies if it didn't meet your personal approval.<br />
<br />
Jay thanks for your advice :-) Jay very good comments and de…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2015-04-14:2900167:Comment:7250542015-04-14T02:14:00.349Zjames wilhelmhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/jameswilhelm
<p>Jay very good comments and detail on the proper way to hang or install cabinets in home or shop, think you have covered more then just the basics and know you are speaking from many years of building very nice looking cabinets and know what you are talking about , I would recomend that any one that is going to hang cabinets , to read this discussion , thanks for helping as all ways , JIM !!!</p>
<p>Jay very good comments and detail on the proper way to hang or install cabinets in home or shop, think you have covered more then just the basics and know you are speaking from many years of building very nice looking cabinets and know what you are talking about , I would recomend that any one that is going to hang cabinets , to read this discussion , thanks for helping as all ways , JIM !!!</p> Outstanding article Jay! Than…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2015-04-12:2900167:Comment:7248762015-04-12T04:17:16.896ZTroyhttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/Troy681
<p>Outstanding article Jay! Thanks for always being so very helpful.</p>
<p>Outstanding article Jay! Thanks for always being so very helpful.</p> Jay,
Very informative---GREAT…tag:kregjig.ning.com,2015-04-12:2900167:Comment:7250692015-04-12T02:54:03.560ZKen Dargahttps://kregjig.ning.com/profile/KenDarga
<p>Jay,</p>
<p>Very informative---GREAT info.</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing and posting the details.</p>
<p>I agree, cabinet construction and installation is critical.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Many are clueless and the advice some give is scary.</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p>Jay,</p>
<p>Very informative---GREAT info.</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing and posting the details.</p>
<p>I agree, cabinet construction and installation is critical.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Many are clueless and the advice some give is scary.</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>